1102
xkcd #2948: Electric vs Gas
(xkcd.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 19 Jun 2024
1102 points (96.3% liked)
xkcd
8870 readers
143 users here now
A community for a webcomic of romance, sarcasm, math, and language.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
It's about the battery, nerd. ๐๐๐๐๐
We'll just do what trains do.
Replace the battery with a massive diesel generator. Run that to get power to the electric motors.
Best of both worlds!
Some trains. In most of Europe, trains are electric and get their power from overhead lines (same for trams and even some buses).
On the other hand, many large ships are diesel-electric. And those gigantic mining haulers as well.
Trolleybus: when you need a cheap moustache ride.
There are some much nicer more modern ones for those not into the post-Soviet-Republic esthetic. The super-long articulated trolley buses are fun.
https://ewaybw.de/en/ewaybw/ TrolleyTruck!
I think this should be the future
I think there was a Renault that worked like this. I think the main issue is that you need a decently sized battery that can supply enough power or else the ICE needs to start every time you hit the gas pedal like was the case with the older Prius models and then you might as well connect it to the wheels and you can have a smaller electric motor.
But batteries keep improving and you can pull more power per kWh now. Maybe with solid state batteries this power train could become the more affordable option.
The way of Toyota hybrids! Though those can power wheels somewhat-directly too.
And almost fully do at highway speeds with how everything is geared
This is a joke, right? Efficiency is atrocious.
Hybrid cars were a topic in germany a few years ago. Laws provided funding for them too (grouped as EVs), despite their huge weight and low efficiency. I think it was solved since then?
The "Best of both worlds!" was the part that should have told you that it was a joke. That and the fact that the statement is purposely ridiculous.
A hybrid car is a very different beast than a diesel-electric train.
Electric vehicles a bad product for 95% of people right now. When is America just going to invest in public transportation.
Pouring billions of dollars widening highway widening projects and giving automotive companies a tax break to charge a premium on electric cars has always been idiotic.
Edit: I was never criticizing electric car owners nor do I care if it works for the specific use case of a small group of individuals. I'm glad some people are adopting a new technology for the sake of helping the environment(I don't care about individuals doing it for clout).
Most people can't even reasonably afford new cars and have an outlet to park next to at the end of the day so you're doing good so long as you plan to keep the car for at least 20,000 miles give or take to offset the carbon emissions of manufacturing the battery. Food and shelter is just more important.
Hybrids are a good stop gap until they dramatically improve battery technology and standardize parts. Plus there are plenty of used hybrids around and are just getting cheaper as more get released onto the market. Hybrids often get released at lower prices due to the cost of manufacturing battery packs.
The ability to reliably get to work and the super market shouldn't be restricted to the ones able to afford and maintain transportation but a basic right of all citizens.
What do you mean by bad for 95% of people? 95% of people drive less than 60 miles in a day. Which is something that can easily be recovered overnight with a standard 15 amp outlet not even a special dedicated charger they would have been fine with early electric vehicles much less what we have today
Pretty sure they're the type to think that if you live within a mile of someone else, any car is bad and every non-walking movement you make should be with public transit. Basically the fuckcars type.
(For the record, I get the frustration on the reliance of cars in everyday life. But the last mile problem is real and getting a practical transit option outside of moderately-sized cities is pretty much impossible)
How many of you guys live in a house you own and can install a fast charger or have reserved parking with even an outlet. How many charging stations are available on your routs. How many of those chargers don't get vandalized and the copper cables cut off with bolt cutters. How many of you guys can afford a typical EV and the cost of charging at a fast charger on your salary.
Most importantly how does it solve the issue of long distance travel, driving in cold weather with reduced range, and towing. If anyone read my post I said EVs are not ready for 95% of people yet.
Ok, so you are kinda dumb if you believe only 5% of people can pass through your scrutiny.
I charge at home. I'm fortunate enough to be a homeowner, but not top-5% fortunate. GM paid for my charger install when I bought the car, but if they hadn't it would've been about $1500 for a more complicated installation than average (circuit breaker panel is on the other side of the house). Even if I were stuck on a regular outlet, 10 hours of charging per day would get me about 35 miles nightly, or almost 13,000 miles per year. Which is about average. All that means I don't need to care about local charging, and neither do others in a similar situation to me (which, again, is not 5% of people)
The car itself (Chevy Bolt EUV) was about $35K new with bells and whistles included. That has since gone down significantly, especially on a used car. Charging cost is a laughable concern - when I charge at home, it's like paying $1/gallon for gas so I'm coming out ahead there. Happy to show you the math there. Fast charging on a road trip is a lot more expensive, but I rarely use it. I don't miss the forest for the trees, especially when it brings me roughly to gas prices anyway.
Long distance, I normally stop for food, stretching, gas, and bio breaks. It's not hard to plan so you do all those things while charging. My car can get about 150 miles of range in under an hour, and I can start full and arrive empty (charging overnight). My car is also arguably the second-worst at this, others are far better.
Cold weather is no problem when I charge at home daily. Maybe I need to spend a little more charging on a long trip in winter, but not impossibly so.
If you think 95% of people tow, that's laughable. I do, usually a rented U-Haul around town. I'll admit I have an ICE to complement my EV for long-haul towing and a few other things, but that's not because my other car is electric. It's because it's small. So many families get by just fine on Subarus and Honda Civics, because they have no need to tow or anything like that. An EV would most likely be just fine for them too.
You don't have to justify your purchase to me, just enjoy it. I never criticized anyone for owning a car.
I'm glad you're having a good experience with your car, I just find there's a lot of compromise and issues that would make it difficult or near impossible for most people to own one.
Something like plugin hybrids and regular hybrids would just be a better fit for 95% of people and public transportation would solve a lot more problems in the long run. It would definitely solve the ballooning cost of infrastructure maintenance and ever growing traffic as well as being better for small businesses.
I wasn't trying to be modest or justify my purchase, I was trying to point out that I'm a pretty normal person who wouldn't be the lucky 1 in 20 for whom an EV would make sense.
Maybe I have to charge a little more on a big road trip once or twice a year and that trip will take an hour or so longer (keeping in mind I stop for other things anyway). Over that year I've saved time in other ways by not going to the gas station or getting my oil changed (or doing it myself). Saved money that way too. Oh, and the car is a battery and a motor. There's no series of accessories given by a belt moving at 2500 RPM. There's no catalytic converter to worry about. All that's to say, less maintenance over time. No need to check emissions. The car is quiet and an absolute pleasure to drive.
I'd say having an EV works damn fine for me. The question is, why am I not part of the 95%?
Because you thought the benefits out way the downsides. The idea of a bad product is subjective and in my opinion the alternatives are just better for the vast majority of people for now.
It's will take standardization of parts and the ability for owners and mechanics to work on it, ability for third parties to produce parts, a track record that proves their claimed reliability and longevity, a more competitive market, better battery tech, more infrastructure for charging, more reliable charging and better range during the winter, etc. all that before it's suitable for more individuals in my opinion.
I still hear plenty of stories involving people trading their EVs in for a gas powerd car either before or after their lease runs up. And I've seen actual people in my life considering an EV and getting a hybrid because of this or that. There are just so many reasons it's impractical for people. It doesn't make them bad and your not wrong for owning one. They just fit your use case better than most.
And I've seen plenty of people go from a Chevy Volt (hybrid) to a Bolt (full electric). But that's not the point. None of what you said was. I told you my car has worked great for me and why, and asked why I'm not part of the 95% of people you mentioned when my life is generally pretty average. You failed to answer that pretty basic question.
I don't know why you want me to explain you and your situation. I really don't see why it would be the same as everyone elses. I'm pulling from stories, other people's experiences, studies, real world cases, the research I did when I was interested, what mechanics are saying, and so on.
Maybe it's different where you live but I come from the Midwest and many of the places I've been, what family members, neighbors, and friends think think are the same story. I really was hoping for actual substance in this conversation but seeing as it's becoming cyclical I'm going to move onto more important things and I hope you do too.
I did have one case where someone enjoyed their Tesla, he was a retired firefighter that barely drove and he liked the way it rode. He didn't know much about it though when I talked to him.
There's a ton of pretty baseless, biased, and flat out wrong anti-EV stuff out there. Don't trust everything you read on the Internet.
95% of people is a huge number. I'm harping on it because it's such a bold claim that an EV wouldn't work for such a huge number, so I'm trying to see how you can back it up.
And for the record, I live in Colorado and am from Minnesota. So I'm reasonably familiar with winter.
It pretty much boils down to living in a small town where there are no chargers and if you're renting especially there is typically no place to plug in. Also issues with not being able to make road trips that don't have chargers along the way, reduced range in cold weather, and if you need to tow it's pretty pointless in an EV.
I agree public transport is the better option, but electric cars are a good option for the vast majority of people as long as we're going to need cars.
I agree but if you can't park near an outlet and you have no charging stations in your town it's pretty impractical to own one. Everywhere I've lived so far that's the case for a lot of individuals. There's also issues with long trips, reduced range in cold weather, and towing being pretty much pointless in an EV.
Wy cant we have both public transport and electric cars?
I never said we couldn't but it's pretty impractical if it's hard to find a charger. A lot of people don't live in houses and at least where I live there is one EV charger in my town. That's one charger not a station, and the town community center shut it down because upkeep was too expensive.
Your Lemmy instance is running under Estonian domain and yet you still imagine the world as just USA
I mean I live in America, my perspective will be American. I'd argue Americans are typically really into cars and the freedom of the open road. I mean we pretty much made electric cars popular so I don't get your point.
I don't know the state of Estonia but I do pay attention to the rest of the world. Most European countries that embrace and properly build out public transportation have happier citizens, livelier public spaces, and healthier business overall.
Do you really believe that 95% of people live in the USA? Guess what, you're wrong. And for 95% of population electric cars are amazing.
We can be civil, no need to be combative for no reason. If you like electric cars that's fine, I like electric cars too but we don't all live in California.
Most people live in apartments here and the only charger available was closed down because maintenance and upkeep was too much for the community center that installed it.
I don't live in the US, but I do live in an apartment. There is a charger at my parking and plenty on the streets.
You live in the city? I'm just curious, I've noticed cities typically move much faster than small towns if at all. I think it's really cool you have that kind of luxury to be honest.
I live in a small town that tries to be modern but it often results in something like free wifi city wide that doesn't really work or a walking path that goes from an Indian park to the opposite side of town for some reason. The one charging station was one of those things that didn't work out but it was neat that they tried.
They are trying to lay optical fiber and trying to convince people to sign up, its super expensive compared to privately owned ISP's but better than coax I guess.
Yeah, I live in a city. In London to be more specific. But on street charging options are growing fast all over the country, you can read more here and you can find a map with all the spots there as well https://www.zap-map.com/ev-guides/on-street-charging
The idea behind on street charging is that infrastructure is already there (lamp posts, etc), adding charging points is relatively cheap and that will generate additional income for the local councils. So it's a win-win for everyone.
That's neat! I think having the ability to charge outside of your apartment/work would be a huge help for people interested. I still think public transportation, bike paths, and walking paths done right is better but cars that polute less is a good step towards the right direction.
It's personal preference but I still think hybrids and plugin hybrids are better for most people, at least until electric cars improve.