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this post was submitted on 14 May 2024
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Honestly race is a social construct formed initially out of ethnicity in a very similar way to gender being a social construct formed initially out of sex. I don’t think most people would be offended by someone whose cultural behavior matched that of a race not normally associated with their ethnicity, as long as it was genuine and not done simply to appropriate another culture.
Like, if a white kid is raised around a lot of Jamaican immigrants, falls in love with reggae, and becomes a Canadian reggae sensation, we aren’t gonna say that he’s black (because he isn’t), but we also aren’t gonna say that Snow is appropriating Jamaican culture.
I guess it could be an interesting question for a more open future society, whether “trans-racial” identity could eventually be something we could identify and accept.
But of course TERFy bitch J.K. Rowling isn’t asking this question in good faith, she’s trying to be edgy and punch down, like she’s constantly doing these days. So, no J.K. Rowling. Fuck off.
I'm white but grew up in Latin America. Nobody cares if I act Latino in Latin American contexts but if I do with a bunch of white people who don't know me it can be weird. Also there's the whole "racially self deprecating latino humor" area that I just kinda try to steer out of generally because nope...
I get that. White people carry so much guilt that we sort of knee-jerk about racial stuff.
I remember in high school I was talking about one of my co-workers, whom I described as “Mexican.” I was told by some of my well-meaning but extremely white classmates, “Don’t call him that, that’s offensive. You should say Hispanic. You don’t know where he’s from.”
I said, “Yes I do. His name is Juan, he’s from Mexico, and he’s Mexican. I know that because I talk to him. He was a police officer there, and decided to get out when he was shot three times. He came to the US and he works in a kitchen here.”
There is an episode of 30 Rock where Tina Fey’s character asks Selma Hayek’s character (the character is Puerto Rican) what she should call her. She says, “A Puerto Rican.”
Tina Fey’s character says, “I know you can say that, but what do I say?”
“A PUERTO RICAN!”
“That does not sound right…”
It's my understanding that black Latinos feel the same way that you do. People look at you like you're crazy when you call Sammy Davis, Jr. Latino despite that he always made sure everyone knew he was Puerto Rican. He used to regularly call himself “the only black, Puerto Rican, one-eyed, Jewish entertainer in the world.”
Edit: Apparently, Sammy was actually Afro-Cuban, but he called himself Puerto Rican because he was worried about anti-Cuban sentiment. TIL.
Or to make it more modern for the kids today- telling a lot of people that Zoe Saldana is Latina doesn't click with them because she's black. Even if you tell them her parents were from Cuba. Even though her last name is fucking Saldana.
There's certainly an argument there I think. My glow in the dark ass is not the one to make it though 🤣
Sorry, but the entire "cultural appropriation" thing is utter bullshit. It's made up rules (social construct, anyone?) just to be able to be better than thou.
No, it's not. There are such things as different races and ancestries. I don't gaf what rave you are, but I get pissed once you start behaving better than thou.
This "cultural appropriation" fad is godawful and needs to go. Live and Let live. Saying that somebody can't do something because they're from the wrong culture and if not it's worng think is the exact behavior that you're supposed to root out. You're doing the exact thing as the old boomers, just on the other side!
I practice kyokushin karate, as Japanese (and a bit Korean) as it gets. I have a kyokushin kanji tattooed on my arm. I'm also a gasp white male, oh noes! Cultural appropriation! Just that, you know, I had my shodan exam taken by Shigeru Tabata himself, who is -surprise- Japanese, and who WANTS me to use parts of his culture, he is actively promoting it.
Most (just, all) people don't mind when others use parts of their culture, that is what cultures do, they change, mix, and evolve over time. Mexicans don't give a crap that Americans wear sombreros on Cinco de mayo, they will sell you those sombreros to being with and love it that you love that part of the culture!
In come the university students who know better than everyone else about their own culture to now tell you that you're abusing Mexican culture!
Just. Shut. Up. Already.
Live and Let live, stop searching for and making up evil monsters, just let people be Happy.
And yes, you calling jk Rowling a terf bitch shows that you're not writing this is good faith, you're just trying to be edgy and punch down.
I’m not sure why you’re angry at me. I never accused anyone of cultural appropriation, merely described a situation where no rational person would. I also generally think the concept is overly policed on the internet and often bullshit. I have argued for years that culture is meant to be shared. I’m a singer, and I do not hesitate to sing songs from cultures outside my own, and indeed I try to find the right way to express that song as much like the other cultures would as I can.
Like everything else in life, though, this is not black and white. There is such a thing as cultural appropriation, and it is when cultures are belittled and not treated with respect. Participating in a culture is fine. Making your team mascot “Chief Wahoo” is not.
I recommend you look into this more. Here is just one example from a quick Google search. What we mean when we talk about race is not nearly as black-and-white (pun intended) as we think, genetically speaking, and is largely something we decide as a society. Thus, a social construct. Like gender. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t have meaning or value, just that it isn’t something unchanging. Like, for example, how Irish and Italians weren’t considered “White” and now are. Or how complicated things can get within some Hispanic communities with regard to skin color.
I’m not sure it’s possible for me to punch down at a billionaire, least of all by calling out her blatant transphobia. I’m also not sure how taking swings at her means I’m not writing in good faith. I suspect you’re just upset and I’m not entirely sure why. Take a deep breath, my friend.
I'm with you approximately %100.
One thing I've done when arguing with a person that insists race is real and meaningful is to ask the other person how many races they think there are.
It gets the gears turning a bit.
European, African, East Asian, Arabic, South Asian, Indigenous Australian, Indigenous New Zealander/Pacific Islanders (same or different?), North American Indigenous, South American Indigenous? are Mexico's Indigenous people the same race as Amazonians? Peru? Are they the same race as the Inuit of the arctic?
etc etc
"What kind of race, African or European?"
I like showing them pictures of Melanesians and asking them if they can guess which part of Africa they're from.
They literally track disease by that thing that doesn't exist https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_health
From your link:
Cool cool I'm now totally convinced race is meaningful. How many races would you say there are? I probably agree.
yes, yes, you found a paragraph to be clever with, I'm so destroyed by facts and logic. (I wouldn't try count myself....a fucking lot.)
If there are "a fucking lot" of races, are you sure you mean races, and not ethnicities?
I think race means like, "well there are several races of people: white people, black people, yellow people, brown people and red people" ...
ain't no red people and there more than a few black races that ain't african type black people.
I'm of the opinion that there aren't any biological races and that race is a social construct.
Is it your opinion that 'African type black people' are a single race?
Well, you're wrong, you've some political reason to deny biological reality.
No I honestly don't. I also think you may not be as racist as you sound, I think you just don't understand the difference between race and ethnicity. How many 'black African' races do you think there are? Answering this question would help me figure out your understanding of ethnicity vs race.
Can you give some examples of the biological reality you think I'm denying? The Wikipedia article you cited did not support your position that race is biologically significant to health.
You didn't deny that 'yellow' is a race. (Again, I don't believe in races, you seem to) Can you tell me some biological realities that apply to 'yellow' people?
I'm not defining terms you understand like your monkey.
You say I'm in denial of biological reality but you refuse to give examples of how I am deluded. You are not arguing in good faith.
Said the guy pretending to not understand basic terms, whether or not he agrees. (You disagreeing with those terms' practical existence is the example)
Mate, no. I understand the practical existence of race (well... to the extent a nonracialized person can) what I'm talking about is the expert consensus that: the matter of where the boundaries between races get drawn is determined by social factors, not biological.
The question of whether an ethnicity was (and is) 'white' or not was a political question, not a biological one.
Oh look. Gobblygook
Imagine claiming this level of attainment in martial arts only to have such poor mental control.
Imitation is the highest form of flattery
"Cultural appropriation" cunts can fuck off
Avoiding cultural appropriation is a easy as treating people and cultures with respect.
If you don't have trouble doing that then great. It's not something most people need to worry about.
Like I said in my reply to phoenixz, the term is overused and over-policed on the internet. Culture is meant to be shared.
But there is such a thing as cultural appropriation. Participating or celebrating a culture is fine. Naming your mascot “Chief Wahoo” is not.
I would call that a racist caricature, not cultural appropriation
So you're cool with black face?
Nope, you don't have to be black to be immersed in black culture
Wait a sec, now I'm confused. Aren't people in black face imitating black people? I thought that was the highest form of flattery? Hold on, could that maybe be a form of cultural appropriation?
I understand what they're trying to say, though. There is a lot of overuse of the term 'cultural appropriation,' but blackface was definitely a form of it, as was always casting white guys as Charlie Chan but making them speak in a fake 'Chinese guy who talks like white people think Confucious wrote' way. There was a shit ton of cultural appropriation in Hollywood and there really still is with some cultures. Mocking South and East Asians, especially Hindus and Buddhists, still seems to be okay in a lot of American media.
There doesn't seem to be an issue in America talking luridly about the Kama Sutra or reducing Buddhism into a bunch of bullshit aphorisms that Siddhartha Gautama never said. And rather than diversify The Simpsons when they stopped having Hank Azaria voice Apu on the show (all the way back in the less enlightened era of 2019), they just retired Apu completely. Notice they did not do that to characters like Dr. Hibbert, who was revoiced with a black actor.
How is that “cultural appropriation” and not just… racism?
Cultural appropriation is a subset of racism.
Just. Shut. Up. Already.
Nope
On top of all this stupidity, how is calling jkr a terf bitch punching down?