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this post was submitted on 28 Dec 2023
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As according to pro-Russia trolls here on Lemmy, Ukraine is losing the war, I wonder how much damage they would do to the Russian fleet, if they were actually winning
Not trying to defend Russia, but the concept of a Pyrrhic Victory has existed for quite some time.
Yeah and it’s been Russian military strategy for nearly as long. Idk if Russia will win, but as it is now both countries will struggle under the weight of the loss of population and resources and immense debt that they’re incurring. For Ukraine it’s obviously worth it, but for Russia, I struggle to see how it’s worth it because even victory will come with an angry edge province and political instability.
You are correct in my opinion. It seems whoever orchestrated that thought it would be the second Crimea, forgot Ukraine had 8 years to prepare (even with a shared soviet corruption problems and cheap traitors) and completely ignored the historical case of their resistance in and post WW2. One magazine even published a postponned article summarizing the achievements of russian warriors, and there were public persons speculating about taking Kiyv in three days. Even if you ignore them normalizing of such an act at all, they were sniffing their farts while planning it and thinking it'd go alright.
Mostly because I think Russian high command was telling Putin whatever he wanted to hear. "Yeah boss, sure, we'll just steamroll into Kyiv, nobody will dare fight back against us..." Keep in mind Russia had tried this EXACT same "rush and decapitate" strategy in Georgia in 2008.
Ukraine has oil reserves that Russia has eyes on. There's the solution to your equation.
Victory would mean Russia has killed most of the Ukrainians who would fight back.
Dunno, it looks like Russia is LOSING BADLY
Nope Russia bad! Ukraine needs money.
DENTAL PLAN
You're defending America's long time enemy because you've consumed their propaganda. You're not an American patriot, you're a Russian simp.
Have you ever considered Ukraine is a sunk cost?
Lol check the ruble's value over time. Feel free to get back to me if you have any data or rationality to back up your room temp IQ argument.
I'm going to assume your answer to my question is "no", you have not considered Ukraine is a sunk cost.
Tell me you're a victim of propaganda without telling me you're a victim of propaganda.
You seem to have forgot all the data to support your argument. I'll respond to your latest unsubstantiated bullshit, but this is the last time:
The propaganda I consume pushes me to defend America, its allies, and civilian lives.
The propaganda you consume has you fighting for America's cold war enemy. The one that has been sowing discord for decades. You're not a patriot. You're just a useful idiot for genocidal Russia that can't even win a war they started against a country 1/10th of their size.
Why do I need data to know you're a victim of propaganda?
You haven't even considered Ukraine might be a sunk cost. That alone makes you an irrational person.
You have an irrational belief that you must be correct. How original.
Try looking up the Dunning Kruger effect sometime.
I'm not the one with an irrational belief.
I've considered Ukraine could be a sunk cost. Did you also think they were going to take back Crimea?
I mean atm, Russia is on the offensive and has gotten some actual results. They conquered Marinka, a 10k population village(before war), which defined the line of conflict, and Avdiivka, a major fortress town that has been holding through the entire war, since 2014, is being threatened with encirclement. Zaluzhnyi even said that they might be forced to abandon it within the next couple months. This would be a significant win for the russians if it happens, much more important than Bakhmut.
The Russians have lost several times now than the population of Avdivka trying to take it. Ukraine shifted to an attritional fight to preserve combat power until they could dismantle Russian fires capabilities which they've been doing quite effectively. If they want to win the war with all their objectives, this is exactly how Ukraine does it. Killing Russians is the best way to get them to leave. Never forget that
I agree with what you are saying but you have to realize that this is partially copium. The Americans had great kill ratio in Vietnam but they still lost.
What happened in the past is in the past. Atm Russia has the initiative and seemingly the will and means to continue. Ukraine's means largely depend on the West.
In EU you have the typical bureaucracy and relactancy of reducing the peace dividends by investing in military equipment production. And thats on top of Hungary sabotaging everything and other major economic issues, like agricultural ukranian products and their effect in EU.
In the US, the republicans are blocking everything and Trump is ahead in the polls.
So it is only natural that with all this uncertainty, Ukraine is reluctant in risking an offensive. If the war ends now, Russia has still gained territory, even if it suffered losses, setbacks and failed to achieve its minimum stated goals(securing Donbass). Though at least they have a landbridge to Crimea so thats something.
Ukraine could lose all their territory and Russia will still lose this war. They already have.
You think this is about territory when it is about energy in Europe.
You think this is Ukraine's Vietnam when it is literally twenty times that for Russia.
Maybe but 500 years from now, who would remember what happened. Eventually things become "it is what it is" and people move on. Borders can last for a long time, especially if one side(the EU) isnt willing to go on the offensive. Strongmen like Putin think of this as weakness, people in the West think of it as "learning from the past".
The USA didn't lose Vietnam because we couldn't win it. We lost it because we weren't trying to win the war, we were trying to occupy Vietnam. This war is totally different, it's a country fighting for it's land.
You could make the same claim for the Russia, that it is considers that land its own and it is fighting for it. Ultimately, yes, this is a different war but my point is that kill ratio isnt always indicative of who is winning.
How many russians see Ukraine as their home vs want it because daddy putin says it belongs to russia?
I mean ultimately, thats how wars are.
The existence of your people or not in an area should not be relevant. If it is relevant, that only leads to genocide and ethnic cleansing. Because noone would want to have a potential casus belli in their land, so they would eliminate all those that would enable something like that.
There are 2 kinds of countries in the world. Those who are satisfied with the current status quo and those who arent. The US, EU, etc are satisfied with the current status quo. Russia, China, Turkey, Venezuela, etc arent. They have issues and they think the current status quo is unfair. And they have irredentist views.
Why would you "freeze" the borders as they are now and not as they were 20 years ago, or 100 years ago or 500 years ago. What i am saying is that India is part of Greece, as per Indo-Greek kingdom of 2000 years ago.
Are...are you making a point that crimea is russian?
Russia spent 10 years in Afghanistan and had 50k reported casualties with 15k reported fatalities. It is regarded as an absolute failure and a shameful loss by Russians.
Russia has been attacking Ukraine for 10 years(2014-present) and has had over 350k casualties with over 40k dead including contractors with the majority happening in less than 2 years.
For context, America was in Afghanistan for 20 years and had under 30k casualties and around 7k dead including allies and contractors. We consider it a failure holistically. America was in Vietnam for 20 years and had under 60k deaths and it was an absolute and shameful failure.
Only a Russian troll could consider the war to be anything but a failure for Russia that has weakened itself as a country and a military in jist under 2 years. Russia will fail as a country because of this pointless war of aggression.
Even if they do somehow force Ukraine to surrender - they've spent so much political capital, military power, actual capital, and human lives on this that they'll be recovering from their "victory" for decades.
"Win" or lose, Russia's economy is ruined. The sanctions won't lift easily and that will cause Russia to do what Germany did after WWI and blame the rest of the world for the state of things. That ends with a big war in Europe as Russia tries to "reclaim" what is "theirs".
LALALALALL CAN'T HEAR YOU TOO BUSY KISSING PICTURE OF ZELENSKY
Why are you saying this? Do you believe pro-ukranians are on Zelensky's side rather than the Ukrainian people's side?
Cope harder, mobik.
Everyone who says Ukraine is losing is a troll.
Tell me you're not a victim of propaganda.
Russia can eat my entire ass, but we can't really predict how this conflict will play out. Russia is inept, but they have millions of bodies to essentially Zerg rush into this conflict... and that strategy worked for them in WW2
True. To say that Russia is winning/Ukraine is losing is total bullshit, but with that said, it is still really unwise to underestimate Russia.
Yeah because nothing has changed since WW2
Computers are at least two faster.
I can't wait until nukes start falling so I can jerk off to the new fallout show