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this post was submitted on 31 Oct 2023
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Man the amount of people in this thread that can't understand that some people don't want to vote for someone who is supporting a genocide of their own people. "But Trump is worse!" Well, yeah, but this is still pretty fucking bad, and were I American I'd hesitate to support it too. It's not like most of these people will vote for Trump, they'll just stay home or vote for a 3rd party.
Those comments make me so angry. There is a genocide being perpetrated on Arabs in Palestine, and Biden is actively defending it. It should be absolutely no surprise that Muslims and Arabs are not going to vote for a genocide denying turd actively trying to fund and arm the perpetrator.
For real, Democratic administrations can't go and have whatever abhorrent policies, including actively supporting an ethnic cleansing, and turn around and go "the other guy is worse, actually. And if YOU don't vote for us it's YOUR fault if this country devolves into fascism"
That is not what a functioning democracy looks like.
The USA has not had a functioning democracy in a very long time.
I would argue never
Someone just replied to me saying exactly that. Bravo!
I can't see how voting for the guy who's going to fund and arm the perpetrator anyway, while using racial slurs to describe you and get you kicked out of the country is any better.
There's your reason right there, everything else literally doesn't matter. Would you be surprised if a Jewish person didn't vote for a Holocaust enabler, even if the alternative was someone else who was even more antisemitic?
I also don't see where you're getting Muslims are going to vote for trump from, they're just going to stay home. This is what democrats are best at, blowing minority support because they lack a backbone. If Muslims will suffer either way, why should they even participate?
"Vote blue no matter who" is a moot point to many people, particularly minorities, who will continue to suffer either way. Biden is supporting the murder of Muslims, how could they stomach bubbling his dumbass zionist name on election day?
I'm not saying that they have good choices available. And again, I completely understand your point. But you continue to ignore the reality of the situation. In your example, it's like asking the Jewish person to vote for a Holocaust enabler vs. a Holocaust enabler that actively wants to put them in the gas chambers. Neither one is a good choice by any stretch of the imagination, but even given two extremely bad choices, why choose the one that has a much higher chance of bringing the hate directly to your doorstep?
It's the classic Sophie's Choice. But in this case, rather than having to choose between one child or the other, you're essentially advocating for an alternative where they both die.
Staying home is a de-facto vote for Trump. Especially in a swing state like Michigan. And if Biden were to take the side of the Palestinians, he'd be alienating the entire Jewish population instead. Taking a neutral stance would probably just end up pissing both groups off. While I don't necessarily agree with the position Biden is taking on this, I also understand that there was never an option available to him that wasn't going to piss someone off.
Once you start throwing around extremist rhetoric like "zionist", I stop paying attention. And I'm still not sure where essentially supporting a man who is openly and unapologetically racist against Muslims and wants them all deported is considered a good idea.
Yes, they're being asked to throw up in their mouths a little while voting for the least bad option. I don't deny that. But you have to understand that if you don't do that, you're going to get someone who's even worse.
First off:
I'm a zionist - Biden himself, literally
Second: It shouldn't be hard to understand that Muslims want to send a message, a Biden loss would result in introspection in the democratic party (if they have the wherewithal, highly doubtful)
Third: Plenty of Jewish people particularly in America do not unconditionally support Israel as Biden has. All he had to do is force humanitarian aid through in return for further aid. Which would allow the least amount of anger from both sides.
Instead he has decided to completely ignore the very legitimate grievances of one side while fully endorsing the other. Which is exactly what the GOP does, do they enjoy wide Jewish support?
Lastly:
Thanks for discussing this in good faith by calling my reasonable grievances "extremist rhetoric". This is exactly what is alienating Muslims. Perfectly proving the point.
And the message you'll be sending is that you're perfectly OK electing a President who actively hates you and wants you deported. In what universe do you think Trump is going to be any better for the Muslim community?
No, it'll cause them to wait and say "I told you so" when Trump makes your situation exponentially worse.
It would have done no such thing. It would just cause both sides to demand answers as to why Biden isn't trying to step in and interfere on their behalf.
Again, you are advocating punishing Biden for his decision in all of this by advocating for the re-election of someone who will not only do the exact same thing anyway, but someone who also actively hates you. You continue to fail to understand that there is no scenario where going down that path is in any way going to work out well for you. You are advocating not only making the situation worse, but electing a man who has campaigned on bringing the hate directly to your doorstep.
No, I called your use of the word "zionist" in that context extremist rhetoric.
Calling you out for using extremist rhetoric is "alienating muslims"? Or is it just not agreeing with you?
And what do you think Trump would do in this exact same situation? Hamas is a terror group that is an enemy of the US, and Trump is openly and unapologetically racist against Muslims. You think what Biden is doing is bad? (Yes, it is, btw). Trump would not only allow the exact same thing, he'd probably send over a few fighter jets himself and would probably try to get you deported if you spoke out about it. The fact that you're a US citizen hasn't stopped Trump before.
Even if I disagree with you, I'd fully understand your point here.......
......and then you went here. So you're not actually willing to suffer on behalf of your Muslim bretheren. You're just willing to advocate for them until it directly affects you. You're willing to take an anti-America position while simultaneously hiding behind the very protections that give you the ability to take that position in the first place. And make no mistake, you'll get your wish: Trump and the GOP will treat you as a second class citizen. The "full belly and roof over your head" bit? Not if they have anything to say about it. Good luck getting sympathy at that point from the very people you're now gladly taking a shit all over.
So long as it's not your domestic comfort that's threatened, right?
And I'm sure that supporting a party that believes in "Christian/White Nationalism" (read: white superiority) and has openly and repeatedly called for a ban on Muslim immigration and aid cutoff to Muslim countries because muh religionz is going to work out so much better for you. Let me know how that turns out, eh?
So you're advocating for the fall of a country you live in and are a citizen of? You might wanna re-think that for a minute. And hey, if you're really a part of the "Death to America" crowd, I'm sure there's plenty of people in Palestine, Yemen, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan and Iran will gladly take you in. I'm sure you'll be much better off over there......
Yeah, I guess it's easy to give the whole "Death to America" schtick while hiding behind the protections that allow you to spew that drivel in the first place. You have shown that not only do you clearly have absolutely no idea how good you have it here, you also have absolutely no idea how much worse it would be for you under a 2nd Trump administration that is campaigning on the backs of attacking your people and your religion.
What's your plan when you're staring at the business end of a shotgun or something held by some lunatic wearing a MAGA hat after being goaded by one of Trump's speeches? Because that's the path you're heading down.
Honestly, they aren't any better than the Bernie Bros. Changing your vote to Trump because Bernie didn't win means that you don't give a shit about policy or issues. No one who actually supported Bernie policies would have ever voted for Trump.
Typical Republican voter thought honestly. I will vote in line with what hurts me the most because it will hurt this one person right there and damned anyone else that sinks in the ship with me.
It's the difference between a "genocide enabler" and a "genocide enacter". It should be clear which is even the smallest bit worse.
Ask yourself this:
Trump moved the US embassy to Jerusalem against the wishes of virtually everybody outside of Israel. He has repeatedly attempted to ban Muslim immigration altogether. What do you think Trump would have done in Biden's position? Be realistic.
Trump would have done the exact same thing. Heck, he may have sent over some fighter jets himself. There is no situation where Trump would have handled the situation in a way that would have better benefitted the people of Gaza. If anything, he'd have used the Hamas attack to re-enact and justify his Muslim bans.
You realize that Trump and the Maga cult will do the same exact thing right? Evangelicals think Isreal has to be there for their rapture to occur? They also pump the military industrial complex more so than democrats do but you think voting for the literal Christian Fascist will end better for Arab populations? And not voting just gives more power to trump. Honestly I get there is a lot of emotion here but you can't be that fucking stupid and short sited right? I hate what's going on but we still live in a dual party system and unless you genocide half the US population that's not gonna change anytime soon. Maybe in 2028 if all unions can get their contracts to align and effectively create a general strike legally we could finally see some change but it takes time.
Jesus Christ.
Everyone knows that Trump sucks more.
Both are zionists, both enable genocide, both treat Muslims as second class citizens. Muslims are dehumanized, ignored, and suffer either way.
Nobody's vote is a guarantee, what part of that is so hard to understand?
Not voting for Biden, is not voting for Trump, it's sending a message to democrats that their position is untenable and needs to be revised. You can pretend all you want that all Americans have the luxury of voting for a lesser evil. That option does not exist for Muslims after October 7th.
I absolutely will never vote for a psychopath that enables the starvation of over a million of children. Regardless of who those children are, regardless of what political positions are held by that individual.
Don't blame Muslims when Biden loses. Blame Biden for making 1.8 billion people, including millions of Americans, hate him so much they would sacrifice anything to see him lose.
No I will because we have billions starving all over the globe, genocides in China, Russians trying to take over Ukraine and destabilize our governments and you are just happily playing along because you do not understand you not voting is fucking voting. You are not making a point by ensuring we go into fascism, you are actively enabling fascism. I blame religions in general for where we are today and people's lack of ability to realize they are complete bullshit. How many more may die of your inaction? If Biden wins and we make sure we vote in proper representatives, then we can still work to better the situation he isn't a fuckikg dictator like trump wants to be if you just throw up your hands and let democracy die there is no chance at aiding this situation or making it better. You are eating into the right wing propaganda that causes you to vote against your interest but go off on how you aren't being an enabler. Fucking idiots this world is filled with, absolute morons.
The simple fact is that Biden and his administration can immediately provide relief to millions of innocent people by forcing Israel to allow humanitarian aid and a humanitarian ceasefire in exchange for further US funding, as opposed to the carte blanche funding, support, and military aid we are currently giving to them as they ethnically cleanse gaza.
All of the other problems are out of Biden's reach, he can't stop the genocide of the Uyghur people, he can't force Russia to give up, and he can't feed the "billions" starving around the globe.
If censoring Palestinian and American Muslim voices and actively chaperoning a genocide isn't fascist to you, then I don't think you understand the term.
Congratulations then on enabling an even worse psychopath to take office and hurt even more children around the globe through his decisions. You're deciding that whatever happens under Trump vs whatever happens under Biden doesn't matter to you, it'll be the same. I'm not pleased with Biden here either, but if Republicans gain power, a lot more people are going to suffer.
Not making a choice is still making a choice. You don't want to actively vote for a lesser evil, so you pick the option that may enable an even greater evil. It's a myth that when there's two lesser evils, you can choose to pick none -- because that in itself is a lesser evil.
Frankly. It's selfish. You don't want to dirty your conscience, and you're content to let a lot more children die and experience hardship because of it.
Man, the amount of people in this thread that don't understand downballot exists, and that's the best tool to force direction changes within upballot. I always vote for the least worst on the upballot and exclusively progressive+educated in the downballot.
I disapprove of both.
The situation is the fault of Democrats so I won't be voting for them. I won't vote at all. My views are not represented
Or instead of serving the side which is in even more in favour of genocide (Republicans) by not voting, you could actually vote in the Democratic primaries in an attempt to ensure they have better candidates.
Your aggressive apathy only serves one side.
Right now, we have a Democrat president. He is the man with the power - and therefore the responsibility - to condemn any atrocities commited. And what is he doing? In every speech he makes, he is openly supporting Israel and its policies. And he doesn't just stop at words, he supports a gigantic aid package for Israel as well.
There is nothing "higher" in the genocide-supporter-olympics.
Even more in favor of genocide? What's the difference when the end result is the same? Israel will not stop until it has completely wiped out the Palestinians and taken their land by killing them or otherwise removing them. Let's pretend democrats are better in this regard (questionable, given the crazy amount of additional billions that Biden has pledged to Israel while they're actively committing genocide), is a slow genocide any better than a slightly faster one? Excuses are made in other policies as "harm reduction" which is already a flimsy excuse in matters not as deadly but where is the harm reduction here?
Keep that in mind when Trump starts the deportations
Do you guys enjoy continually going through this cycle of 'vote for the least bad war criminal or society will collapse' every 4 years? You realise that you're going to lose at some point, right? It amazes me that liberals keep doing this and never think of trying anything else.
The 'something else' would be a better voting system that's not two party. In the meantime, our choices are bad or worse.
Maybe you should put this energy in advocating for change, rather than shaming people into voting for war criminals. You say "in the meantime" like it's just going to come around to you with no action.
A vote happens once every four years. We are perfectly capable of doing other things on non-voting days. It's not mutually exclusive