It's dogshit
Hamas and Israeli hardliners are two sides of the same coin. The choice is not one hardline faction or the other; it is between fundamentalists and all those who still believe in the possibility of peaceful co-existence. There can be no compromise between Palestinian and Israeli extremists, who must be combatted with a full-throated defense of Palestinian rights that goes hand-in-hand with an unwavering commitment to the fight against anti-Semitism.
Utopian as this may sound, the two struggles are of a piece. We can and should unconditionally support Israel’s right to defend itself against terrorist attacks. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by Palestinians in Gaza and the occupied territories. Those who think there is a “contradiction” in this position are the ones who are effectively blocking a solution.
We can and should unconditionally defend US slave owners' property rights. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by enslaved people.
We can and should unconditionally support Nazi Germany's right to rid itself of undesirables. But we also must unconditionally sympathize with the truly desperate and hopeless conditions faced by those placed in concentration camps.
Feel free to add your own
Then what are we talking about?
It was understood to be, by several people. Once again you're doing this essentialist ontology stuff instead of looking at the actual effects of certain things.
Because 'right to exist' is metaphysical drivel. They do exist and are currently genociding the Palestinians, and they should stop.
You answered your own question.
Why do I care? Just because someone has a shit understanding doesn't mean its reality.
If I make some idiot craps their pants because they have a liberal worldview that shouldn't be my problem, especially not on this site where I thought we all shared the same leftist worldview that settler colonial soycieties necessitate utter destruction in their nascent form or else there will be massive, tragic genocide like what happened to the native americans, what could have happened to all of eastern europe, and what is currently happening in what remains of sovereign Palestine.
I understand why it could be interpreted in bad faith based on a soy rewriting of history using a lib worldview but thats not my problem in this situation. I now understand that its another argument in the arsenal of zionist apologia that the liberals have.
My son, the existence of Isntreal itself is a genocide. Look at the map I shared earlier, you cant just go to another country and tell the inhabitants "ok guys im going to start an ethnostate here, move or i kill you". Its fucking settler colonialism, isntreal needs to be destroyed for the genocide to "stop".
LMAO so Palestine is Terra Nullis like how "Australia" was?
Haha, clearly.
I've extended nothing but good faith in this conversation, I know that you don't intend to convey a call for ethnic cleansing and have stated that multiple times. The fact that other users and mods read it with some genuine concern is also not an indication of bad faith, as the hallmark of bad faith is insincerity.
No? That hasn't gotten anything to do with pointing out that 'right to exist' and 'actual existence' are entirely separate concepts, with a 'right to exist' being literally immaterial. Israel has no right to exist, no legitimate claim to existence, nothing like any of that, and yet exists all the same and leverages that existence to continue to genocide the Palestinians. You're doing this "Israel isn't real bro it can't hurt you" schtick, as it in fact, continues to hurt lots of people.
Ok keep denying a genocide then.
I've already demonstrated that you haven't engaged with over 90% of what I wrote because you're a candidate for lesswrong's membership. Like how you just ignored what I wrote about isntreal being fundamentally genocidal, akin to america and nazi germany, due to the material necessities of its birth and continued existence. I was not born yesterday moron.
Its still a bad faith interpretation that denies a historical understanding of isntreal and its creation as a settler colonial project of genocide. Do you actually fucking deny that isntreal is a settler colonial, genocidal project?
Are you stupid? Israel isnt real because it has no legitimacy as a state, its one giant administrative region for a slaughterhouse of human beings. That is what it means to be a settler colonial project. Of course it fucking hurts people but that doesn't mean it should be recognized as a sovereign nation, because that would mean you imply that genocide is a valid way of establishing a state and that Palestinians lost the land fair and square. I don't care if the whole world supports Isntreal, I still support Palestine and its view of their oppressors as an illegitimate cancer on land that is rightfully theirs.
Me: They do exist and are currently genociding the Palestinians
You: Keep denying genocide then
We're both tugging at selective threads of the conversation based on our goals for it, cause I'm still waiting on that census data of Gazan jews from you.
I didn't ignore it, I dismissed it as metaphysical drivel attempt to distill some 'essence' of Israel.
That's not what bad faith means. That's just being wrong.
I've probably said 15 times that Israeli has consistently engaged in settler-colonialism and genocide, and that such settler-colonialism and genocide even predated the establishment of the state of Israel.
You're conveniently ignoring my main point but ok.
Im not making any soy claims about the "essence" of Isntreal. The fucking material reality on the ground is that it could not have existed without a massive genocide. The very notion of "israel" necessitates land stolen and people removed from Palestine. Just like america and nazi germany before it. This is why it needs to be destroyed. Its a deeply unjust situation and im fucking shocked that you think that mass loss of life and land theft to create an ethnostate is "metaphysical drivel".
The individual was not operating in "bad faith" but the argument is a bad faith argument due to its dishonest presuppositions rooted in Zionist apologia.
Because they are a settler colonial project, not a proper nation. You don't get it, the creation of Isntreal itself was an act of settler-colonialism and genocide.
As I said:
"Of course it fucking hurts people but that doesn't mean it should be recognized as a sovereign nation, because that would mean you imply that genocide is a valid way of establishing a state that shouldnt immediately be militarily opposed by every country on the planet if they had a sense of justice. I don't care if the whole world supports Isntreal, I still support Palestine and its view of their oppressors as an illegitimate cancer on land that is rightfully theirs."
Your main point to me seems to be that 'Israeli' should be understood to mean 'settler' before anything else. I've expressed at length that this runs the risk of being interpreted in an alarming fashion, and for a little more effort, this can be avoided. You don't seem to care about that. Which sure, that's fine.
Is that not your main point?
Well then don't use phrases like 'original sin'
I don't, I've accurately described those actions as genocide, repeatedly.
v.s.
Pick one you smug liberal piece of dog shit.
And that isntreal itself is a cancer on the world that needs to be treated with the same military and cultural response that nazi germany did in the 20th century.
*also it isn't "should be" but "is", this is an important distinction because I don't recognize it as a sovereign state since this implies a dismissal of Palestine's sovereignty and a~~n acceptance~~ dismissal of their genocide /*as a natural state of affairs
I fucking know what it means you pedantic cuck. I thought it would be a convenient shorthand as a way of conveying the material nature of isntreal's creation and existence but nvm.
By people with a liberal worldview who I would have never thought to encounter as users of this site but that was clearly a wrong assumption.
"All israelis must leave" is fucking crystal clear because it the literal reality on the ground that israel is a settler colonial project that is in the same vein as nazi germany and america before it. If people have a stupid liberal worldview then fuck them I don't care. 90% of the site agrees with me and thought OP was an idiot.
There's no contradiction to pick through. Nazi Germany can and was opposed without having to sift through the metaphysical fluff of whether or not they 'happened to be' or 'must have been' evil genocidal maniacs. And further, neither you nor I believe that the US and Britain opposed Nazi Germany because it was "ontologically evil". Their concerns and opposition were pragmatic. Heck, even the KPD offered pragmatic support for the German Nazi party in one of the biggest accelerationist self-owns in history.
No one believed that anyone had made any ethnic cleansing calls, and when I linked to yours as an example. Everyone's response was 'oh yeah, you gotta report that shit', and it was deleted as a [accidental] call for ethnic cleansing.
Natural state of affairs? Nonsense. Actual state of affairs, as in the state of Israel is using state apparatus to actually genocide actual Palestinians? Undeniable.
Because they literally were??? Like fucking Isntreal??? *I dont see why you say that calling a spade a spade is "metaphysical fluff" like cmon, its fucking undeniably evil to commit genocide.
I was referring to the people of the Soviet Union and its neighbors opposing it because it was an evil cancer eating their lands and killing their people in concentration camps.
Stupid, stupid rat bastard.
If you acknowledge the statehood of isntreal then you imply that invading another sovereign country with a foreign force to commit genocide and land theft is a valid way to create a nation.
You're like one of those pretentious wannabe academic types who thinks that using a bunch of random factoids to unintentionally run "muh nuance" apologetics for the status quo is being smart.
Yes, clearly, but notice that we're talking about the evilness of actions, not attributes or essences.
Yes, it was evil because of what it did, not because of some essence of it.
Let's not pretend that everyone agreed with you, and let's further note that all the examples you cite are more careful than you, calling for the expulsions of settlers, not all Israelis.
It's not a valid way to create a state, but it is an actual way to create a state, it is how Israel was created, and pretending Israel doesn't exist doesn't do anything to prevent Israel from acting in a state's capacity.
I do have bad news for you on that front.
Are you already an academic? Feel bad for your students bud, to have a liberal as their teacher. I hope they all submit their work 9 seconds before the deadline so you have to speed grade it lmao
The action of creating isntreal was the displacement and genocide of Palestinians. Your argument is still invalid.
Also, observe how,
Transitions to:
"w-well according to a source that is different to the one I was referring to originally!"
*I mean even without addressing these images you are a fool who didnt check what people actually said to you when you made that post which you referred to as a gotcha just now lmao
Youre a total idiot who thinks "israel isnt real" literally means that isntreal doesnt exist and is just an imaginary phenomenon. No, as I explained before, it literally means it has no legitimacy as a state and must be destroyed.
Sorry this is where we disagree, I don't recognize the legitimacy of its statehood because doing so would be to recognize that it has claims to lands that it stole by genociding the people living there. This is wrong and unjust.
I recognize that "israel" refers to something, and that something is an invading force of settler occupiers who run a human slaughterhouse. Its a settler colonial society at its core with all of its systems of power geared towards the genocide of Palestine to steal land. Just like how a gun is designed to shoot bullets, Isntreal is designed to kill Palestinians.
No, this displacement and genocide preceded the incorporation of the state of Israel as a political entity, continues currently, and could extend beyond it's existence if there were a devolution into the local communes.
I don't recognize the legitimacy of it's statehood because getting hung up on legitimacy is metaphysical drivel. Israel makes and exercises claims to stolen land, legitimate or not. This act of stealing the land and holding it from the indigenous population is to be opposed regardless of what intellectual or legal framework can be roped around it to 'legitimize' it. Talk of Israel's 'right to defend itself' is metaphysical drivel attempting to legitimate genocide.
No? Lot of words to say absolutely nothing but unintentional Zionist apologia. "Hurr our country is ok bcuz the region already had a genocide!!!!"
The act of creating isntreal necessitated the conquest of Palestine by Britain and the forceful settlement of Palestinian land.
*And "this displacement and genocide preceded the incorporation of the state of Isntreal" is a stupid thing to say because its literally saying "bro the map was green from the beginning in the early 20th century!" As if the genocide was going to happen anyways and then Isntreal was just created by accident lmao
Literally what I said but ok. "B-bbbubt akshualasflaslfy you-ACK" its not an "intellectual" or "legal" argument to say that its wrong and unjust to genocide a population.
So is talk of "Israel's" "right to exist" because a settler colonial state that is only there to steal land and commits genocide must be destroyed no matter what.