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why must so many comrades be on cope like this?
Have you ever held power? Had any kind of actual responsibility? Or are you just a spectator in the power struggles of other people like every other western leftist? An audience to power and responsibility where politics basically just resembles fantasy sports?
It's not cope if you are actually listening to what real chavistas, people who are in the game and who this shit affects directly, are saying. Literally just shut up, stop complaining, and listen. It's not that difficult.
Yes, that's the exact attitude I was referring to, what has turned the newsmega from once a great source into being completely unendurable. A clique of pollyannas and panglossians. "Shut up and stop complaining. Oh and listen to chavistas[sic], but really just listen to us, because we know exactly what all of them say because they're a monolith and agree with our analysis, and are all universally happy about how things have gone down in their country. What, you disagree? You must want them all to get shot and bombed, you doomer ultra!"
When did I say everything was fine? That things were going just dandy? Where have the chavistas ever said that? You wouldn't know because you clearly haven't read them or what they are saying about this. Actually cite my arguments. Actually cite them and their arguments. Quote anything that isn't some imaginary dialogue that only occured in your head. How is what you are doing anything other than spectator chants and chauvinism from the peanut gallery?
I would maybe take you even slightly more seriously if you didn't have this penchant for asinine literary comparisons as if because you reference Voltaire means that you are better than a liberal who references Harry Potter, and for putting words in my mouth.
The reality is that the Venezuela issue is a litmus test for who on the left have ever politically organized and who is exclusively a leftist on the internet. Anyone who has actually spent years earnestly and sincerely struggling with the masses against our oppressors know that the task is arduous and you will often fail. The history of communism is mostly a history of failure, bad decisions, mistakes, tentative alliances and agreements with objectively bad people. Tactical retreats and even losses are the norm, not the exception. Survival of the project in the long term is the only path forward, and no one here who is criticizing delcy has even once out forward and idea of what could have been done differently to put Venezuela in a better situation than they are currently in. Only vaguely hand waiving and saying "resist." Like a liberal at a no kings rally. No strategy, no analysis, just empty headed critiques founded in a fictional reality completely detached from the material world
those real chavistas had better be mobilizing because in spite of your "assurances" i have enough sense to see where the wind is blowing which isn't difficult it's true. it takes the thinnest fraction of a self saving maneuver for venzuela to go from this proclamation to gas station under a neoliberal puppet and no lack of experience disqualifies me from saying that out loud
I'd say our lack of experience entirely disqualifies any of us from having any real kind of opinion on this. This is basic Maoist bullshit. We are getting all of our opinions in the situation through whatever journalists are willing and able to publish.
This is not real knowledge of a situation. This is a spectacle of a situation. We don't know where the wind is blowing, we can only get an abstract sense of it. There is nothing scientific about anything we are doing here.
Stop making predictions and proclamations and sit, wait and listen. This isn't sports.
Then why the hell do you get to be the one to tell others to shut up and stop complaining? If none of us know, then neither do you.
If you really do think that literally all of us should just "shut up and listen" without pushing your own opinion (an insistence that everything happening is obviously great and for the best) as the only Correct and True Materialist Analysis, then you are in the minority of the clique that usually tells anyone concerned about what's happening in and with Venezuela that they're ignorant ultras, or worse.
no one is saying that!! maybe try to actually listen
I am not the one making predictions! I am not claiming to know what is going on!
Don't just spout 'one true materialist' memes at me. That is absolutely reductive and reactionary. You aren't an ultra.
Look at what I have said on this topic elsewhere. This is a critical junction point for this government. We will have to see and wait for what happens. Not what is said, what actually happens. We cannot be proclaiming that the sky is falling and socialism is doomed because of a speech. Socialism is not made from public addresses.
It seems like the natural extension of existing problems in the community's ability to assess geopolitics that it would decay into standpoint epistemology but for Gorbachev.
Comrade, Gorbachev isn't a good comparison. Venezuela has never been socialist, it has never completed its revolution. Reformism has hard limits. The commune movement in Venezuela is best compared to a still-developing dual-power movement, and is where the revolution actually lies. Protecting the budding dual-power movement and preventing fascists from retaking the state is what's unfortunately necessary when you do not smash the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie and replace it outright.
If the PSUV takes aim against the communes, then we know for a fact that it's indeed a failed revolution, not merely one struggling for sovereignty with the Empire on its neck. Framing this as "standpoint epistemology" is reductive. Further, this has never been an ideologically consistent website. Doomerism and superficial understandings of Marxism, anarchism, and geopolitics plague this site, and of course I count myself as guilty of this as well. This is not a party, there is no democratic centralism here. This is a necessary consequence of being a shitposting site, for better and worse.
Demcent or lack thereof isn't especially relevant to the issue here. The issue is radlib bullshit masquerading as enlightened radicalism. I do I guess need to agree that there actually is consistency rather than "decay" as I put it, with HBs being able to correctly identify some backwards policy while doing endless apologia for whatever revisionist bullshit is comfortable for maintaining broad support for their preferred sports team (state-level actor), but we used to have more people who pushed back on it and were better received, like XHS.
The entire debate is clearly not just standpoint epistemology, but many of the arguments being made very clearly are. They provide no basis for criticism, no threshold for falsifiability, they just tell you to "sit and listen". It literally is that you are not allowed to contradict it because you are the wrong type of person to be able to say anything, so no I am not being reductive.
Comrade, with all due respect, by painting all of the analysis as merely "standpoint epistemology," you collapse genuine points while not providing any counter-analysis. I fail to see how that's particularly productive. If you want to oppose what you see as a problem in Hexbear, then you need to actually do what you believe to be necessary, not just sit on the sidelines.
I went against the grain on this thread, gave my own analysis (which did involve some degree of "listen to the chavistas," to be fair), and gave an example for what I believed would spell an actual point at which we can definitively say the Venezuelan revolution is over. Is it perfect analysis? No. Am I perfect? Absolutely not, far from it. I am still a beginner in my own view, and I don't mean that out of false humility. My point is that I didn't like how the thread was going, so I did my best to show an active example of what I believe to be a better way to contribute, and I believe you are more than capable of doing the same or better.
I was not accusing you of anything, I was talking about replies like this one:
https://hexbear.net/comment/7484530
If you are saying that in order to metaconversationally reject this kind of rhetoric as not being a valid or productive objection, I also need to provide a detailed and compelling case in support of one conclusion or another in the conversation itself, then I can't really help you.
The vast majority of the time I deliberately try to stick to very narrow claims that I think are clearly provable or else are so one-sided that there is no meaningful counterargument because, among several other things, I actually don't like the idea of being on here all day writing essays about stuff that I'm not very certain about, and furthermore I believe that an individual claim can stand on its own merits without some sort of social performativity about how to be a Good Communist. No one in the fucking world should take how to be a Good Communist from me "modeling" it, and I'll leave the "why" up to the reader, but I still have the ability to argue on the merits of a specific point and so that's what I do. This is likewise not false humility but an earnest belief.
Insofar as you presented actual arguments, I respect your position even if I don't share your optimism, and what you said falls outside of the scope of my objection. If I miscommunicated on this point, I apologize.
Please, I have spent more time responding to comments genuinely explaining my positions and showing the evidence that supports them more than I have been condescending. The difference is in the way people speak about it, plenty of people express concern about what they are hearing without jumping to conclusions based on nothing material. Every time I have questioned people's positions they produce nothing but allusions and vibes. Every time I provide my analysis, rebuttal, or follow up questions, they are ignored. This has been going on for months and now I feel totally validated in pushing back against those same people who still refuse to engage with the points that many people have brought up, but still repeat their same baseless accusations. At this point they are openly erasing the lives of millions of chavistas and saying they literally don't exist as an organized movement because of what they are perceiving to be unilateral comprador in delcy Rodriguez. this is white supremacy, preemptively justifying the deaths of the people who they think should have been sacrificed if they were really revolutionary. It is wholly manufacturing conset for the abandonment of people who need our support and it is disgusting and deserves pushback
And how has this community done previously on the whole geopolitical spectrum? There hasn't been a decay. It was always a vibes based crap shoot, our percentages were just slightly better than the liberals are because we aren't literally just slurping the English media propaganda.
Pretending this is a decay into standpoint theory is absolutely hilarious, as if this community ever had any kind of consistency in theoretical application and understanding. It's a shit posting forum.
And even then, we lost big on not betting that Russia would invade Ukraine while the Anglo-media slurping libs did.
People just need to relax. You're not going to get every prediction right. You're not the head of an intelligence agency with field agents nor an international news media conglomerate with undercover reporters. You should expect to be wrong most of the time frankly. The fact that the new mega overall outperforms Western MSM is a mark against Western MSM, not a mark for the news mega. It's "wow, how can Western media be this fucking stupid" not "wow, the news mega is filled with super geniuses who can see the future with dialectical materialism."
The certainty people have that she's betrayed the revolution reminds me of the certainty hexbear users had that Russia was not about to invade Ukraine the night before they did.
Sure, they could gave guessed correctly about Venezuela this time, but there's no analysis or evidence backing it, it's embarrassing to see so much doomerist grandstanding crowding out any actual analysis.
I'm fine with that it could go either way and waiting to find out, I don't need to pretend like I know something that nobody knows.
We always had fools like you and I describe, but I feel like there was a stronger minority presence before of people opposing those stances with some degree of popular approval.
We have reached purely metaphysical thinking on the allegedly Marxist website. Too bad all these oracles and sages of the Internet aren't the scheming viziers of the people who actually have things to lose in this situation
stochastics has a physical basis. we've seen politicians like her before, and i'm either going to be pleasantly surprised or not surprised at all
You've seen a vice president of a revolutionary project become president after the president was kidnapped by a foreign government? What did that person do ? What are the relevant details that are comparable to this one ?
I asked some science bro and he told me wind blows a lot of air and changes direction at random which is pretty fucked if you ask me
imagining the hexbear party line in 1991 on Gorbachev and Yeltsin. Ummm shut up and listen to the party you ultras! This is a momentary retreat to protect the soviets! If there really was a problem the soviets would revolt!
This isn't an argument.
Imagine Hexbear on China in 1982, communism is over, China will be capitalist in 5 years, Deng is an imperialist running dog.
See, I can do this game too.
Yeah but if you do it you'd win
It's sad, but all they have now is copium. Rodriguez, Machado... All the same shit.