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The paradox of tolerance (discuss.online)

submitted 2 days ago by VetOfTheSeas@discuss.online to c/coolguides@lemmy.ca

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[–] squalless@programming.dev 7 points 13 hours ago (1 children)

I disagree with this assessment of the text - assuming it's correct, I'm not familiar with the source.

What this extract is saying imo is as long as it's possible to effectively keep in check and counter intolerance with argument and public opinion, suppression is unwise.

But, tolerance should reserve the right to suppress intolerance before it becomes violent, specifically when intolerance acts in bad faith and refuses to participate in logical argument or debate, and instead denounces argument entirely.

So the threshold is not violence itself, but one example of what "may" lead to violence.

Just my 2¢ on the text (not my opinion on the topic).

[–] JasSmith@sh.itjust.works 1 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

There is no way to reconcile your interpretation with the actual text:

and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

A preemptive strike is neither stated nor implied by Popper. I find that a dangerous proposition for a democratic nation. It would justify any and all manner of violence based on nothing and anything but the subjective and active imaginations of the politically inclined.

[–] squalless@programming.dev 3 points 9 hours ago (1 children)

I've re-read it and still kindly and respectfully disagree about the meaning of that excerpt in isolation. Whatever the implications of this interpretation are, I have no idea because I'm not familiar with the work (however naïvely).

Here's a detailed breakdown of my take:

I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies;

The key word here is always, so, intolerant philosophies shouldn't always be suppressed.

as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise.

The condition for not suppressing intolerant philosophies is if they can be kept in check and countered by public opinion and rational argument.

But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force;

Reserve the right to suppression if necessary..

for it may easily turn out that

Because the following things might easily happen:

they [the intolerant] are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

An example of what may occur when the first approach fails due to essentially bad faith, and the reasoning for why to reserve the right to suppression. But it doesn't frame violence as the threshold for when to apply that suppression.

Anyway, that's my take. I'm still assuming this quote is accurate - I haven't checked it.

And once again I'm absolutely not agreeing with these positions or assertions about the suppression of intolerance, this is just how I understand the text.

[–] JasSmith@sh.itjust.works 1 points 27 minutes ago

and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols.

This is the operative statement to which I'm referring. If the party to which Popper is referring is not "answering arguments" with "fists and pistols," Popper is not making an affirmative case for suppression.

To be clear, he's not making an absolute statement either. He's not saying, "we may only ever suppress speech which is violent." However - and this is critical - he's also not making an affirmative statement that speech without violence should be suppressed. This is the original work and quote used to derive the Paradox of Tolerance, so I think it behooves us to heed that in this statement, he's referring to physical violence. Further, there are no statements of his in which he argues for suppression of non-violent speech.