cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/9183854
this post was submitted on 26 Mar 2026
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I've written before on electoralism. There are a few issues with @Diva@lemmy.ml point of view here.
To be clear I am not saying that elections are the only thing that matter or the only thing that we should be doing; just that it is foolish to be ignoring them. Ideally, we should be having our own party, but in places where that is not possible, we should participate in primaries and vote as left as possible. Diva's dismissiveness here is effectively saying we should step out of the way and let fascists have their way. Harm reduction is still important.
I will also just tag a comment here that voting is still a form of organizing and building credibility. If you have a movement and can persuade its members to vote then said members can also be persuaded to protest or strike. In the west voting carries little personal harm, so if people find that too tall then one can be sure that any higher order resistance might not happen.
At a minimum we should all be voting left in primaries to have statistics that there is in fact a left leaning populace that is being ignored. Protest votes and spoiled ballots are also good moves to do.
Diva is not wrong that the dems are also capitalists, but their apathy is discouraging leftist unity and changes to our material conditions.
This is a false binary. I criticize democrat politicians for arming a genocide, that's me demanding better from them because their actions on that front cost them the election and tens of thousands of people their lives.
Harm reduction for whom? did it include Palestinians getting bombed with US weapons? any of other victims of US foreign policy? Trump couldn't operate with impunity as he is if the democrats didn't set him up for it.
No it fucking isn't. Organizing is organizing. Be it building dual power, mutual aid networks, unions, affinity groups, whatever. Voting is the bare minimum civic participation. Conflating them is a diversionary tactic designed to make people think they've done something groundbreaking by filling in a ballot.
completely backwards. Movements don't start with voting and scale up to strikes. they start with material organizing and sometimes engage in electoral politics tactically (ideally with an actual workers party)
Funny, did this in the 2024 'primaries' with uncommitted votes; all warning signs were completely ignored. surely if we keep trying the same things will work out eventually.
I'm not apathetic, I'm actually quite involved in irl organizing (actual organizing, not electoral). I'm just not particularly invested in the democratic party.
For many vulnerable people. Its good that you are unaffected by the election results, but please check your privilege.
A bare minimum that mls cannot be bothered to do. As such they have no credibility to doing higher level activity.
Are you aware that there have been elections before that? We should have been organized long before. J Edgar Hoover thanks you for your contributions. You are the leftist he would wish to see. Disorganized and unwilling to take actions.
Right, you cared so much you couldn't spare an afternoon every two years? Maybe skip the shit posting a few days to get some of the time to do so. Not all of us are so privileged as to not care about the harm reduction at the least.
I'm actually pretty fucking affected by them, I'm a trans woman and plenty fucking familiar with economic precarity. I've been having my prescriptions fucked with on and off ever since Trump got in office, my insurance even stopped covering pretty much every formulation of estrogen other than ones used by cis women
You're lecturing me about privilege because you don't like how I feel about your preferred party of genocide enablers.
I've voted in pretty much every fucking election on and off year in my adult life, plus I'm an anarchist.
It's rich accusing me of being a fed/useful idiot while identifying voting for the democratic party as the truly useful activity.
Once more, I've fucking voted every year for over two decades. I even vote in municipal elections, those happen on odd numbered years.
feel free to continue attacking straw targets though I guess.
Seems you didn't read my opening statement:
It's not like you've read anything I've said. You couldn't even seem to register that I vote in these fucking elections routinely and still find the democrats disgusting.
I also did read and respond to that, you called me privileged without engaging with anything I said.
And I never said you were wrong to do so. I am saying your bad attitude around voting is undermining our leftist movements by being needlessly divisive.
personally I find sending unlimited weapons to a genocide to be needlessly divisive.
feel free to continue trying to tone police my 'bad attitude' (criticizing democrats)
And therefore we should ignore voting even more? The ml position here reads like abstinence; which is effectively to give up.
Talk about a strawman. Like I said earlier. It would be ideal for us to have our own party. It would be great if mls like you would join us in support of it. Until then the progressive wing of US politics lives in the dem party and it would be helpful to our movement to help it grow as much as it can.
And since you care so much about strawmanning; don't forget I did say voting is only one thing we should do. Not the only thing ;)
Hey, I'm an anarchist, at least pretend you're reading anything I'm saying. I vote plenty, you can't seem to register that though because you're stuck fighting ghosts.
"We should have our own party BUT actually let's just be dem progressives forever"
Also I'm an anarchist, once more you seem incapable of processing anything I say.
You spend an entire thread accusing me of not voting and undermining leftism by criticizing dems and are now pretending that voting isn't all you are advocating for? Talking out both sides of your mouth
And I am still asking you to make common cause with us to vote for short term goals. Do you want to quote were I said you should not want to ultimatly destroy the government?
Given how much push back I am getting from a fellow lefty like yourself to vote left we are going to be stuck as progressive dem for some time. Thanks for your contribution here.
I'll refer you to my opening comment Ms. Strawman.
Is your position that the reason we don't have a workers party because people like me (marginalized trans anarchists) criticize the democrats online?
I vote plenty, democrats have won my state in presidential elections for my entire voting lifetime. You're the one saying 'someday we'll have our own party' as cover for demanding democratic party loyalty right now. You're not building anything, you're just defending existing power structures and blaming critics.
That is great, and it would be helpful to us both if you also didn't have an infectious attitude about elections that discourages others to show up. Its fine if you do not want to run or help in a campaign, but it would be helpful if you spoke to and helped fellow lefties show up to primaries and vote as left as possible.
If you still really hate it show up and spoil your ballot at a minimum. Elections are still a show of numbers and credibility. A revolutionary group that cannot commit to such a low stakes action is not credible for higher level organization and resistance.
I wasn't aware I was infectious, you're making me sound like I'm an influencer or like operating the yuri mind control machine. I'm just a girl on the internet.
Your position still sounds like you're tone policing criticism of the genocidal warmongers who got us into this mess.
Everyone is to some degree. Leadership by example is powerful and the actions are you communicating is that you are not going to get everything so you are not going to even try. It creates a nagative feedback loop. Diva won't vote as there is no leftist party. There is no leftist party because Diva won't show for it. At scale this means we as a group are missing out on more organization and influence.
To be fair to you the communication is leadership by example is often unintentional. You may not have the intention to create this feedback loop or other influences, but that does not mean you are not doing so. This is true for everyone.
For someone who deeply cares about ending genocide you put too much effort into talking about why you won't take a small action that could help. Would you roll a dice to stop it if the probability was 1:100 of stopping it? Note that not rolling also means a continue. Your attitude is that you would rather just let it continue. I suppose it is easy to have a purity test when you are not cold and hungry in a siege. In that sense you are not checking your privilege with your lack of urgency. And this is only one topic on the ballot.
are you incapable of registering that I do vote? How do you keep failing to read that across at this point a half dozen posts.
You are not actually engaging with anything I'm saying and just rattling off bullshit.
so why do you keep acting like I don't then? You aren't even internally consistent in that post, you say that it's great that I vote, but then act like I don't again in the second paragraph
You are going to have to clarify. I feel I have made my point.
you didn't make any points, you just keep accusing me of not voting and going in circles lmao
I clearly say that its good that you voted. I also say that your disdain for participation is harmful and that it would be helpful if you talk to our other fellow lefties about doing so. At least to spoil their ballots. Like you said early on it is the minimum civil engagement.
I also pointed out that your attitude about voting sets a discouraging message to those around you. It fosters apathy and dis-unity among our fellow lefties.
Is that more clear?
wow it's almost like that's been my position all along, and it's not mutually exclusive with thinking that democrats are genocidal warmongers.
just to be clear, your problem really is about my attitude towards democrats
Thank you for that Ms. Strawman. I don't think mls would show up to vote if we did have a group up left leaning party.
I will point that early on I did say it would be ideal to have our own party. Voting dem is more about a necessity since we as a group have neglected to form one (in part thanks to the prevailing attitude similar to yours that the elections don't matter).
I also never said that its the only form of organization we should do. Just that it is foolish of us to ignore it. Which is why I am also reaching out to you to please encourage fellow lefties to vote as left as possible.
I also never said that anarchism was a bad thing or undesirable. I did ask you for help in short term harm reduction. It seems to me that your lack of urgency is due to privilege.
Just look at how much effort I have to go to ask a lefty, you, to encourage others to form a party and at least vote as left as possible. It is toxic behavior on your part to push back on what you broadly agree with and tear down the coalitions we have. J Edgar Hoover couldn't have done better if he trained agentes himself.
I knew plenty of MLs who did vote for PSL in the last few elections, just feels like you're dealing in caricatures.
What lack of urgency and privilege? I've been plenty impacted by this government, I even had a person I knew through housing organizing get taken by ICE last year. I don't see the democrats as credible 'harm reduction'. they are useless at best, co-conspirators at worst.
I already said it's minimum civic engagement, I even vote in municipal elections and try to get comrades to at least vote in those because they're decided by like a hundred people. Whatever you're arguing against, it's not my position.
if you're going to accuse me of that, my observation is that the only one doing freelance fed work in this conversation is you
The kind were you are so dismissive about building out our options and growing progressive politics. Particularly in regards to voting.
And I've spoken to many that are dismissive and taunting about just not doing so.
Which is why we should vote as left as possible. Particularly in primaries. Ideally have our own party running.
Great. It does not seem like it. It reads like you would do the opposite.
as we've already established you're barely reading anything I'm saying
are you going to vote PSL if they're on the ballot for you?
I said that voting isn't organizing. it's not something that leads a movement, it follows a movement.
I happen to be in one of the last places they might show up. That said, if they were I would vote in their primary and again for them in the general.
sounds like we're in agreement on that at least then
And we can move forward together there. I'll always vote as left as possible.
It's good to hear. from re-reading this exchange I don't even think our practical positions are particularly different, we were talking past each other and have different electoral environments
We are in a class war. I feel that elections are still a front in that war, not the main one, but still an important one and we neglect it to our detriment. Our attitudes toward things matter. It is hard to reflect it on ourselves. That is all.
But yes. I do think we agree on the core issues.