this post was submitted on 18 Mar 2026
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Joseph Stalin was a communist leader inspired by Leon Trotsky

Trotsky was a communist revolutionary and intellectual. He once wrote "In politics, obtaining power and maintaining power justifies anything" in his book "Leur morale et la nôtre"*

In this book, Trotsky justifies the use of lies, infiltration of other political parties, smearing, even hostage taking. He says absolute ruthlesness is necessary to overthrow a hostile system and wield power. He concludes "We are acting for the greater good. We can't be restrained by normal morality".

Joseph Stalin took Trotsky's advice literally. So he murdered Trotsky because he saw him as rival. Stalin also started killing people because he believed they could be sympathetic to capitalism or opponents to his power.

Matvei Bronstein: Theorical physicist. Pioneer of quantum gravity. Arrested, accused of fictional “terroristic” activity and shot in 1938

Lev Shubnikov: Experimental physicist. Accused on false charges. Executed

Adrian Piotrovsky: Russian dramaturge. Accused on false charges of treason. Executed.

Nikolai Bukharin: Leader of the Communist revolution. Member of the Politburo. Falsely accused of treason. Executed.

General Alexander Egorov: Marshal of the Soviet Union. Commander of the Red Army Southern Front. Member of the Central Committee of the Communist Party. Arrested, accused on false charges, executed.

General Mikhail Tukhachevsky: Supreme Marshal of the Soviet Union. Nicknamed the Red Napoleon. Arrested, accused on fake charges. Executed.

Grigory Zinoviev:: Communist intellectual. Chairman of the Communist International Movement. Member of the Soviet Politburo. Accused of treason and executed.

Even the secret police themselves were not safe:

Genrikh Yagoda : Right-hand of Joseph Stalin. Head of the NKD Secret Police. He spied on everyone and jailed thousands of innocents. Arrested and executed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genrikh_Yagoda

Nikolai Yezhov : Appointed head of the NKD Secret Police after the killing of Yagoda. Arrested on fake charges. Also executed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Yezhov

Everybody was absolutely terrified during this period. At least 500 000 people were murdered. Over 1 million people were deported to Gulags, secret prisons in Siberia, where they worked 12 hours a day.

Joseph Stalin decided to crush Ukraine for resisting communism and supporting independance. In 1933, he seized all Ukraine's food production including all the bread, the wheat, the cows, the chicken. In the next months, over 5 million Ukrainians were starved to death. The situation was so bad that thousands of people turned to cannibalism. When the Nazis invaded Ukraine, some Ukrainians thought they were saviors

https://cla.umn.edu/chgs/holocaust-genocide-education/resource-guides/holodomor

https://www.history.com/articles/ukrainian-famine-stalin

Hitler was a monster, but we really don't talk enough about how bad Stalin was.

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[–] BeardededSquidward@lemmy.blahaj.zone 14 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Yet people still don't know the difference that he was an authoritarian that forced a grinding, socialist state on his people over what actual socialism/communism is.

[–] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 16 points 3 days ago (7 children)

Could it be because "actual socialism/communism" has never existed in reality and every time it was attempted, it turned out to be a "grinding, socialist state"?

[–] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)
[–] Diplomjodler3@lemmy.world 0 points 2 days ago (1 children)
[–] prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 2 days ago

Care to elaborate? How is Cuba not socialist?

[–] Zorque@lemmy.world 9 points 3 days ago (2 children)

That presumes they were trying socialism/communism and not just using it as a cover for their authoritarian ideology.

[–] dandelion@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 points 2 days ago

I dunno, the Bolsheviks did a lot of good stuff in the early days 🤔

[–] AdolfSchmitler@lemmy.world 2 points 3 days ago

That's a bingo! Same with China today.

I think you could make the same argument with just about any economic policy. Free market capitalism has never existed in reality and every time it was attempted, it turned out to be an abstract of colonial imperialism.

It ends up billions of apes are hard to govern in a way that excludes usery and violence.

A most interesting theory, comrade. Perhaps you would like to give a speech further exploring your ideas in the basement of the secret police headquarters?

[–] 001Guy001@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Adding quotes for reference:

"The Russian revolutionaries believed that the international struggle for socialism could be started in Russia—but that it could only be finished after an international socialist revolution. A wave of upheavals did sweep across Europe following the Russian Revolution and the end of the First World War, toppling monarchies in Germany and the Austro-Hungarian empire and shaking many other societies. But workers didn’t succeed in taking power anywhere else for any length of time. So the Russian Revolution was left isolated. In these desperate circumstances, Russia’s shattered working class couldn’t exercise power through workers’ councils. More and more, decisions were made by a group of state bureaucrats. At first, the aim was to keep the workers’ state alive until help came in the form of international revolution. But eventually, as the hope of revolution abroad faded, the leading figure in the bureaucracy, Joseph Stalin, and his allies began to eliminate any and all opposition to their rule—and started making decisions on the basis of how best to protect and increase their own power. Though continuing to use the rhetoric of socialism, they began to take back every gain won in the revolution—without exception." / "To finally consolidate power, Stalin had to murder or hound into exile every single surviving leader of the 1917 revolution. Russia under Stalin became the opposite of the workers’ state of 1917. Though they mouthed socialist phrases, Stalin and the thugs who followed him ran a dictatorship in which workers were every bit as exploited as in Western-style capitalist countries." / "..The popular character of the Russian Revolution is also clear from looking at its initial accomplishments. The revolution put an end to Russia’s participation in the First World War—a slaughter that left millions of workers dead in a conflict over which major powers would dominate the globe. Russia’s entry into the war had been accompanied by a wave of patriotic frenzy, but masses of Russians came to reject the slaughter through bitter experience. The soldiers that the tsar depended on to defend his rule changed sides and joined the revolution—a decisive step in Russia, as it has been in all revolutions. The Russian Revolution also dismantled the tsar’s empire—what Lenin called a “prison-house” of nations that suffered for years under tsarist tyranny. These nations were given the unconditional right to self-determination. The tsar had used the most vicious anti-Semitism to prop up his rule—after the revolution, Jews led the workers’ councils in Russia’s two biggest cities. Laws outlawing homosexuality were repealed. Abortion was legalized and made available on demand. And the revolution started to remove the age-old burden of “women’s work” in the family by organizing socialized child care and communal kitchens and laundries. But just listing the proclamations doesn’t do justice to the reality of workers’ power. Russia was a society in the process of being remade from the bottom up. In the factories, workers began to take charge of production. The country’s vast peasantry took over the land of the big landowners. In city neighborhoods, people organized all sorts of communal services. In general, decisions about the whole of society became decisions that the whole of society played a part in making. Russia became a cauldron of discussion—where the ideas of all were part of a debate about what to do. The memories of socialists who lived through the revolution are dominated by this sense of people’s horizons opening up." / "The tragedy is that workers’ power survived for only a short time in Russia. In the years that followed 1917, the world’s major powers, including the United States, organized an invasion force that fought alongside the dregs of tsarist society—ex-generals, aristocrats, and assorted hangers-on— in a civil war against the new workers’ state. The revolution survived this assault, but at a terrible price. By 1922, as a result of the civil war, famine stalked Russia, and the working class—the class that made the Russian Revolution—was decimated." (from the book "The Case For Socialism" by Alan Maass)

"Partisans of the free market point to the failure of Soviet planning as a reason to reject, out of hand, any idea of an organized economy. Without entering the discussion on the achievements and miseries of the Soviet experience, it was obviously a form of dictatorship over needs, to use the expression of György Márkus and his friends in the Budapest School: a nondemocratic and authoritarian system that gave a monopoly over all decisions to a small oligarchy of techno-bureaucrats. It was not planning itself that led to dictatorship, but the growing limitations on democracy in the Soviet state and, after Lenin’s death, the establishment of a totalitarian bureaucratic power, which led to an increasingly undemocratic and authoritarian system of planning. If socialism is defined as control by the workers and the population in general over the process of production, the Soviet Union under Stalin and his successors was a far cry from it. The failure of the USSR illustrates the limits and contradictions of bureaucratic planning, which is inevitably inefficient and arbitrary: it cannot be used as an argument against democratic planning. The socialist conception of planning is nothing other than the radical democratization of economy: If political decisions are not to be left to a small elite of rulers, why should not the same principle apply to economic decisions?" / "Socialist planning must be grounded on a democratic and pluralist debate at all the levels where decisions are to be made." (from "Ecosocialism: A Radical Alternative To Capitalist Catastrophe" by Michael Löwy)

Yeah... if I'm not mistaken, basically Russia was pre-industrial society before the revolution, and needed Europe to revolutionize too for that industry; but viceversa might not have been true, because had Europe revolutionized first, we could have pushed through the hardships with our preexisting industry.

But that revolution didn't come, so Russia was left crippled: still pre-industrial, and damaged from the revolution, from the World War, and from imperialists trying to stop them.

That crippling made workers enter survival mode, both morally and literally, not being able to participate in democracy, which is what ultimately let Stalin and his allies raise to power and do what he did.

[–] village604@adultswim.fan 0 points 3 days ago (3 children)

Humans are the problem. Any system we come up with will be corrupted eventually.

[–] TwiddleTwaddle@lemmy.blahaj.zone 8 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Hierarchy is the problem. Any social system that allows for it will be corrupted eventually.

[–] village604@adultswim.fan 1 points 2 days ago (4 children)

I invite you to describe the framework for a society that functions without any form of hierarchy, then.

[–] Honytawk@discuss.tchncs.de 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

All of these frameworks would require every person to work for the betterment of society. It is a nice sentiment, but not really realistic. That is why they call it utopian.

Does every person not wish for the betterment of their lives and that of their community? When people's needs are universally met, for what purpose would someone act out of greed or malice? And why do you suppose that a robust and flexible societal structure couldn't handle such hypothetical bad actors appropriately? The practice of anarchic principles isnt some fictive utopia, but a process by which people (actual, real, living people right now) actively work to improve the lives of those around them.

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

That is the entire purpose of Anarchism; to remove hierarchies and instead implement a truly horizontal and egalitarian society. This was put into practice in Catalonia in the 1930's, and from all historical accounts we have of that period, it was extremely successful. There's also some great books on that period that goes into detail of how it operated, such as this one.

[–] village604@adultswim.fan 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

The main issue I'm seeing is that the success stories are from relatively small groups.

Many systems, like communism, work fine in small scale applications, but scaling them up to the size of a country or continent doesn't tend to work because there're too many moving parts to not have inherent vertical hierarchies and multiple failure points where bad actors can corrupt the system.

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 2 points 2 days ago (1 children)

There were roughly 1.6 million participants in Anarchist Catalonia. More recently, Rojava (Kurdish Syria) has successfully operated on a decentralized/federated system heavily inspired by Anarchist theory, and that had a population of 4.6 million, with no major internal issues or strife.

Anarchist theory is, in my opinion, one of the best defenses against Cluster B people getting in positions of power. Under a centralized government, a bad actor has tremendous power, and there is often limited options for a population to counter that corruption, since it is often self-reinforcing by the system itself. As an example, to corrupt the US, corporations need only bribe a few hundred senators, and then can effectively implement self-serving laws that reinforce monopolies of power.

In a system with decentralized power where the community itself is the bedrock of power, how does an outside force effectively corrupt it? They can bribe a community's delegates, but those can be immediately removed if corruption is perceived by the community. To make any headway, they would effectively need to bribe an entire community, which could be thousands of people, and those people would have no incentive to take those bribes if the bribe was to prop-up something detrimental to that community.

Because every position of power has so little power in a decentralized community, a Cluster B personality would have very little ability to cause damage compared to a centralized system.

Also, bear in mind that according to studies, only about 1.6% of the population has a Cluster B personality. The reason they are able to wreak so much havoc is pretty much entirely due to having centralized governments, as well as an economic system that rewards and empowers cluster B behavior, both of which work synergistically to result in the worst possible outcome for the majority.

For an Anarchist society to flurish long-term, it would also need to eliminate capitalism almost immediately, and instead replace it with universal basic rights to food, housing, healthcare, and public transportation, alongside a library and gift economy, reinforcing a society built on mutual aid.

If you'd like to see how that sort of world would look like for an average person, I'd highly suggest reading The Dispossessed.

[–] village604@adultswim.fan 0 points 1 day ago (1 children)

1.6 and 4.6 million people is an extremely small population when you're discussing applying it to a population of 8 billion. As the population scales up a centralized government is inevitable because the system has too many moving parts.

To make any of this happen globally, or even just a country, you have to rely on all people behaving differently than they have for the past several thousand years. Human tribalism, selfishness, and greed were a problem way before capitalism was a thing.

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 2 points 1 day ago (1 children)

1.6 and 4.6 million people is an extremely small population

Respectfully I have to disagree there.

As the population scales up a centralized government is inevitable because the system has too many moving parts.

I haven't found that to be the case in my research. Decentralized modes of society appear to scale very well as long as it is combined with federation.

To make any of this happen globally, or even just a country, you have to rely on all people behaving differently than they have for the past several thousand years. Human tribalism, selfishness, and greed were a problem way before capitalism was a thing.

While hierarchical oppressive societies have been prevalent for the past 8,000 years, new evidence shows that before that, the norm for humans were egalitarian societies, so our current path is quite an aberration from that norm. If you'd like to delve into that research yourself, you can read it for free here.

1930's Catalonia and Rojava are very solid evidence that with the right societal structure, we can actually bring out that latent egalitarian ability of humans. People who lived through what happened in Catalonia described there being a period of acclimation to the concept of things being free, yet only taking what you need, but that once people understood that there would be more waiting for them later, they quickly adapted to living in a post-scarcity fashion. There's a good documentary on that topic here, if you're interested.

[–] village604@adultswim.fan 1 points 1 day ago

The highest population number that you provided is in the neighborhood of 1800x less than the global population. That's, relatively, an extremely small sample.

I'm not saying it can't work at all, but a handful of examples of it working with populations smaller than a large metropolitan area isn't proof it can be scaled.

The more cells you have, the more vertical hierarchy is necessary to coordinate things between the groups to make sure everyone is represented fairly.

[–] 001Guy001@sh.itjust.works 4 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Chiming in to say that you can check out the book Getting Free: Creating An Association Of Democratic Autonomous Neighborhoods (James Herod) (though it might not be 100% framework), and the book "Anarchy Works" by Peter Gelderloos (the latter might supply less of a framework but still worth reading I think)

2 quotes from "Anarchy Works" for general reference:

"Korean anarchists won an opportunity to demonstrate people’s ability to make their own decisions in 1929. The Korean Anarchist Communist Federation (KACF) was a huge organization at that time, with enough support that it could declare an autonomous zone in the Shinmin province. Shinmin was outside of Korea, in Manchuria, but two million Korean immigrants lived there. Using assemblies and a decentralized federative structure that grew out of the KACF, they created village councils, district councils, and area councils to deal with matters of cooperative agriculture, education, and finance. They also formed an army spearheaded by the anarchist Kim Jwa-Jin, which used guerrilla tactics against Soviet and Japanese forces. KACF sections in China, Korea, and Japan organized international support efforts. Caught between the Stalinists and the Japanese imperial army, the autonomous province was ultimately crushed in 1931. But for two years, large populations had freed themselves from the authority of landlords and governors and reasserted their power to come to collective decisions, to organize their day-to-day life, pursue their dreams, and defend those dreams from invading armies. One of the most well known anarchist histories is that of the Spanish Civil War. In July 1936, General Franco launched a fascist coup in Spain. [..] While in many areas Spain’s Republican government rolled over easily and resigned itself to fascism, the anarchist labor union (CNT) and other anarchists working autonomously formed militias, seized arsenals, stormed barracks, and defeated trained troops. [..] In these stateless areas of the Spanish countryside in 1936, peasants organized themselves according to principles of communism, collectivism, or mutualism according to their preferences and local conditions. They formed thousands of collectives, especially in Aragon, Catalunya, and Valencia. Some abolished all money and private property; some organized quota systems to ensure that everyone’s needs were met. The diversity of forms they developed is a testament to the freedom they created themselves. Where once all these villages were mired in the same stifling context of feudalism and developing capitalism, within months of overthrowing government authority and coming together in village assemblies, they gave birth to hundreds of different systems, united by common values like solidarity and self-organization. And they developed these different forms by holding open assemblies and making decisions in common."

"One economy developed over and over by humans on every continent has been the gift economy. In this system, if people have more than they need of anything, they give it away. They don’t assign value, they don’t count debts. Everything you don’t use personally can be given as a gift to someone else, and by giving more gifts you inspire more generosity and strengthen the friendships that keep you swimming in gifts too. Many gift economies lasted for thousands of years, and proved much more effective at enabling all of the participants to meet their needs. [...] gift economies, in which people intentionally kept no tally of who owed what to whom so as to foster a society of generosity and sharing."

[–] village604@adultswim.fan 1 points 2 days ago (2 children)

But a governing council and a military are both examples of a hierarchical structure.

[–] TwiddleTwaddle@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Not necessarily. Councils can be an effective form of consensus decision making without those councils having any greater authority than the people they represent. Militaries can also operate (effectively) without top-down hierarchical structures. I've heard the term "leaderful" (as opposed to leaderless) used to describe these types of organized-yet-nonhierarchical structures.

[–] village604@adultswim.fan 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

But the councils have to have more authority to be the ones making the decisions instead of the people they represent.

Any form of delegation of responsibility is going to have some hierarchical aspect to it because you're giving the delegate the authority to make decisions on your behalf.

I don't think it's possible to completely remove hierarchies from society, but I think the real issue is the general population glorifies those positions of power, and that attracts people who shouldn't ever be in a position of power.

[–] TwiddleTwaddle@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 2 days ago (2 children)

But if that delegate (and the council itself) has no more authority than the people they represent, anyone who feels their position isn't being represented can raise the issue and represent themselves or their point of view. These types of systems are reliant on civic engagement far exceeding what we most people in the western world would consider possible.

This is also part of why many anarchists make the distinction of just vs unjust hierarchy. Just hierarchy is when the respected elder or community organizer in a neighborhood represents the neighborhoods interest in the council, and has regular meetings with the people they represent to ensure all views are represented. Unjust hierarchy is when 51% of the 20% of the population that actually voted puts the person who invested the most money into their campaign in charge.

The point is to structure your society in a horizontal way such that no person or group of people has any degree of power greater than any other, and has no method of gaining greater power. As I've said elsewhere, there are miriad ways of accomplishing this, and each community tends to have solutions that work for them even if that solution wouldn't work for another community.

[–] Honytawk@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

So a just hierarchy is like a kingdom and an unjust hierarchy is a democracy?

Who voted for the "respected" elder? What if 49% of the population don't respect them?

Wtf? If that's what you genuinely took away from my comment, I can only invite you to read theory. You clearly have a fundamental misunderstanding of what we're discussing.

[–] village604@adultswim.fan 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

Thank you for the explanation! That does make sense if the distinction is made between just and unjust.

It does sound rather difficult to scale that to an area the size of a continent without a significant amount of vertical hierarchy, though.

[–] ProdigalFrog@slrpnk.net 2 points 2 days ago

Anarchist theory ensures power comes from the bottom up, instead from the top down. If a community wants to participate in wider federation of other communities, they may elect delegates to perform duties on their behalf, but critically, they can be recalled at any time if they are unsatisfactory in their duties to the community. There's also a strong emphasis on delegation, not representation. This ensures that if corruption does begin to occur, it can be eliminated quickly, and ultimately the power to do that lies with the people who would be most effected by it.

This can even be implemented militarily, as it was done during the Spanish Civil War to good effect.

[–] 001Guy001@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

They don't have to be, they can be cooperative/communal endeavors where people arrive at decisions together, where nobody is coerced

[–] Honytawk@discuss.tchncs.de 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

So nothing would ever get done?

Who gets to decide how much of a percentage of the council needs to agree before a motion gets accepted?

Like, it is a romantic sentiment "every decides together", but how would that work practically? Someone will have more power than the others. And when that happens, you have a hierarchy.

[–] 001Guy001@sh.itjust.works 2 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

It does work in communities around the world, though each community can do it differently. You can look into the practice of consensus for a general way of doing that.

"Consensus decision making is a creative and dynamic way of reaching agreement between all members of a group. Instead of simply voting for an item and having the majority of the group get their way, a consensus group is committed to finding solutions that everyone actively supports, or at least can live with. All decisions are made with the consent of everyone involved, and this ensures that all opinions, ideas and concerns are taken into account. Through listening closely to each other, the group aims to come up with proposals that work for everyone. Consensus is neither compromise nor unanimity - it aims to go further by weaving together everyone’s best ideas and key concerns - a process that often results in surprising and creative solutions, inspiring both the individual and the group as a whole. At the heart of consensus is a respectful dialogue between equals. It’s about how to work with each other rather than for or against each other - it rejects side taking, point scoring and strategic manoeuvring. Consensus is looking for ‘win win’ solutions that are acceptable to all, with the direct benefit that everyone agrees with the final decision, resulting in a greater commitment to actually turning it into reality." (from the book "A Consensus Handbook" by Seeds For Change)

And adding:

"The 2001 popular rebellion in Argentina saw people take an unprecedented level of control over their lives. They formed neighborhood assemblies, took over factories and abandoned land, created barter networks, blockaded highways to compel the government to grant relief to the unemployed, held the streets against lethal police repression, and forced four presidents and multiple vice presidents and economic ministers to resign in quick succession. Through it all, they did not appoint leadership, and most of the neighborhood assemblies rejected political parties and trade unions trying to co-opt these spontaneous institutions. Within the assemblies, factory occupations, and other organizations, they practiced consensus and encouraged horizontal organizing. In the words of one activist involved in establishing alternative social structures in his neighborhood, where unemployment reached 80%: “We are building power, not taking it.” People formed over 200 neighborhood assemblies in Buenos Aires alone, involving thousands of people; according to one poll, one in three residents of the capital had attended an assembly. People began by meeting in their neighborhoods, often over a common meal, or olla popular. Next they would occupy a space to serve as a social center—in many cases, an abandoned bank." / "The city of Gwangju (or Kwangju), in South Korea, liberated itself for six days in May, 1980, after student and worker protests against the military dictatorship escalated in response to declarations of martial law. Protestors burned down the government television station and seized weapons, quickly organizing a “Citizen Army” that forced out the police and military. As in other urban rebellions, including those in Paris in 1848 and 1968, in Budapest in 1919, and in Beijing in 1989, students and workers in Gwangju quickly formed open assemblies to organize life in the city and communicate with the outside world. Participants in the uprising tell of a complex organizational system developed spontaneously in a short period of time—and without the leaders of the main student groups and protest organizations, who had already been arrested. Their system included a Citizen’s Army, a Situation Center, a Citizen-Student Committee, a Planning Board, and departments for local defense, investigation, information, public services, burial of the dead, and other services. It took a full-scale invasion by special units of the Korean military with US support to crush the rebellion and prevent it from spreading. Several hundred people were killed in the process. Even its enemies described the armed resistance as “fierce and wellorganized.” The combination of spontaneous organization, open assemblies, and committees with a specific organizational focus left a deep impression, showing how quickly a society can change itself once it breaks with the habit of obedience to the government. In the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, state power collapsed after masses of student protestors armed themselves; much of the country fell into the hands of the people, who had to reorganize the economy and quickly form militias to repel Soviet invasion. Initially, each city organized itself spontaneously, but the forms of organization that arose were very similar, perhaps because they developed in the same cultural and political context. Hungarian anarchists were influential in the new Revolutionary Councils, which federated to coordinate defense, and they took part in the workers’ councils that took over the factories and mines. In Budapest old politicians formed a new government and tried to harness these autonomous councils into a multiparty democracy, but the influence of the government did not extend beyond the capital city in the days before the second Soviet invasion succeeded in crushing the uprising. Hungary did not have a large anarchist movement at the time, but the popularity of the various councils shows how contagious anarchistic ideas are once people decide to organize themselves. And their ability to keep the country running and defeat the first invasion of the Red Army shows the effectiveness of these organizational forms. There was no need for a complex institutional blueprint to be in place before people left their authoritarian government behind. All they needed was the determination to come together in open meetings to decide their futures, and the trust in themselves that they could make it work, even if at first it was unclear how." / "Peasants in Spain had been oppressed throughout centuries of feudalism. The partial revolution in 1936 enabled them to reclaim the privilege and wealth their oppressors had derived from their labors. Peasant assemblies in liberated villages met to decide how to redistribute territory seized from large landowners, so those who had labored as virtual serfs could finally have access to land. Unlike the farcical Reconciliation Commissions arranged in South Africa, Guatemala, and elsewhere, which protect oppressors from any real consequences and above all preserve the unequal distribution of power and privilege that is the direct result of past oppressions, these assemblies empowered the Spanish peasants to decide for themselves how to recover their dignity and equality. Aside from redistributing land, they also took over pro-fascist churches and luxury villas to be used as community centers, storehouses, schools, and clinics. In five years of state-instituted agrarian reform, Spain’s Republican government redistributed only 876,327 hectares of land; in just a few weeks of revolution, the peasants seized 5,692,202 hectares of land for themselves. This figure is even more significant considering that this redistribution was opposed by Republicans and Socialists, and could only take place in the part of the country not controlled by the fascists." / "In the state of Chiapas, in southern Mexico, the Zapatistas rose up in 1994 and won autonomy for dozens of indigenous communities. Named after Mexican peasant revolutionary Zapata and espousing a mix of indigenous, Marxist, and anarchist ideas, the Zapatistas formed an army guided by popular “encuentros,” or gatherings, to fight back against neoliberal capitalism and the continuing forms of exploitation and genocide inflicted by the Mexican state. To lift these communities up out of poverty following generations of colonialism, and to help counter the effects of military blockades and harassment, the Zapatistas called for support. Thousands of volunteers and people with technical experience came from around the world to help Zapatista communities build up their infrastructure" / "Throughout the 2006 rebellion in Oaxaca [within Mexico], as well as before and after, indigenous culture was a wellspring of resistance. However much they exemplified cooperative, anti-authoritarian, and ecologically sustainable behaviors before colonialism, indigenous peoples in the Oaxacan resistance came to cherish and emphasize the parts of their culture that contrasted with the system that values property over life, encourages competition and domination, and exploits the environment into extinction. Their ability to practice an anti-authoritarian and ecological culture—working together in a spirit of solidarity and nourishing themselves on the small amount of land they had—increased the potency of their resistance, and thus their very chances for survival. Thus, resistance to capitalism and the state is both a means of protecting indigenous cultures and a crucible that forges a stronger anti-authoritarian ethos." / "Throughout Europe, dozens of autonomous villages have built a life outside capitalism. Especially in Italy, France, and Spain, these villages exist outside regular state control and with little influence from the logic of the market. Sometimes buying cheap land, often squatting abandoned villages, these new autonomous communities create the infrastructure for a libertarian, communal life and the culture that goes with it. These new cultures replace the nuclear family with a much broader, more inclusive and flexible family united by affinity and consensual love rather than bloodlines and proprietary love; they destroy the division of labor by gender, weaken age segregation and hierarchy, and create communal and ecological values and relationships." (from the book "Anarchy Works" by Peter Gelderloos)

[–] TwiddleTwaddle@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I have a library full of books on the subject, but you can start at https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/c/anarchism

[–] village604@adultswim.fan 1 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I didn't ask for a library of books. I invited you to explain it.

I mentioned my library on the subject to indicate that there is no simple answer to that question, and probably not even a single answer for all situations/locations/peoples. The theory of non-hierarchical societal structures is an entire field of study, and the practice of it, like all anticapitalist movements, is always stamped out to the greatest extent possible by those in power. There are however existing examples of anarchist or pseudo-anarchist communities.

The EZLN of the Chiapas region of mexico has largely maintained autonomy since the early 90s, and the Kurdish resistance movement in Rojava (inspired by the writings of Abdullah Öcalan) has established similar autonomy despite the ongoing war efforts.

On a smaller scale, you'll find "intentional communities" around the world, most of them taking elements of Libertarian Socialism in the ways that are most feasible and useful to them.

[–] snooggums@piefed.world 6 points 3 days ago (1 children)

While technically true, some systems make it far easier than others.

[–] village604@adultswim.fan 1 points 2 days ago

I mean, it took capitalism about 200 years to be corrupted because the economic power starts off more decentralized than communism or socialism.

That's not to say capitalism is a good option, because it clearly isn't, but communism and socialism require a more centralized federal government by default which is a much smaller point of failure.

But the problem is people with cluster B personality disorders and those who follow them. Some systems are easier for them to infiltrate, but it happens to all of them eventually.

The people who should have power are rarely the ones who seek it, unfortunately. I like Heinlein's (I think, might have been Asimov) take on it. Government officials should be dragged in kicking and screaming and only be allowed to leave when they do a good job.

[–] TheFogan@programming.dev 2 points 3 days ago

I view the general problem with it is simply the existence of other societies.

IE lets say you have 4 societies on an island. 3 of them put all of their focus into developing a sustainable workable long term solution, farming/fishing etc....

1 of them, works on building weapons and attacking the other 3. Result, the murderous colony kills the other 3, then eventually either learns to act like the ones it killed and produce food, or it dies out with nothing left to raid.

Or like say rabbits, if you try and raise rabbits. You drop 2 in the wolf enclosure and see what happens. obviously the result is the rabbits die out. it's not that rabbits aren't a viable evolutionary path. It's that without time and space to grow their numbers before getting encroached by the nearby predators, there's no shot.

[–] ruuster13@lemmy.zip -2 points 3 days ago (4 children)

Humans aren't ready for actual socialism. We have to evolve out the tribal savage first.

[–] BlackLaZoR@lemmy.world 1 points 1 day ago

No. Socialism will never be a thing because it's fundamentally incompatible with the evolutionary incentives at the core

[–] 001Guy001@sh.itjust.works 5 points 2 days ago

The "tribal savage" attitude/behavior is created/reinforced by capitalistic societies/interests. We need to actively create an alternative system and it will reshape society as we go.

"The world as we enter the 21st century is one of greed, of gross inequalities between rich and poor, of racist and national chauvinist prejudice, of barbarous practices and horrific wars. It is very easy to believe that this is what things have always been like and that, therefore, they can be no different. [...] The anthropologist Richard Lee [said]: "Before the rise of the state and the entrenchment of social inequality, people lived for millennia in small-scale kin-based social groups, in which the core institutions of economic life included collective or common ownership of land and resources, generalised reciprocity in the distribution of food, and relatively egalitarian political relations." In other words, people shared with and helped each other, with no rulers and no ruled, no rich and no poor. [...] Our species [..] is over 100,000 years old. For 95 percent of this time it has not been characterised at all by many of the forms of behaviour ascribed to ‘human nature’ today. There is nothing built into our biology that makes present day societies the way they are. Our predicament as we face a new millennium cannot be blamed on it." (from the book "A People's History Of The World: From The Stone Age To The New Millennium" by Chris Harman)

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"Is it true that our human nature is “survival of the fittest”, greed, competition; that we can't really think about the benefit of the whole and that it's all about the individual - “if I can survive, if my family can survive, that's fine, I don't care about anyone else”? Or maybe it's human conditioning, a second nature, which means a condition that's been practiced for so long that now it seems like it's innate. Because when you think about it, from a very early age we go to school, and the main purpose of this is to basically propel us into the “real world”, where we need to find a job, get a career, and try to survive as isolated people in separate houses, with the family, the car, and all that. But it's a very isolated experience, where you try to build wealth only for yourself. And that's what we're pushed to do, that's what we're encouraged to do, that's our definition of success. But who says? We don't come up with these ideas when we're born, we learn these ideas." (from the book "How To Change The World" by Elina St-Onge)

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"Ownership of things in common was so universal throughout the American continent when the Europeans arrived that even the cooking pot, Columbus noted, was available to anyone who wanted to take from it, and this even in times of starvation. Two centuries later, Thomas Morton could also say of the Five Nations inhabiting New England that “although every proprietor knows his own . . . yet all things, so long as they will last, are used in common amongst them.” The idea of ownership of land was so alien among Native Americans that individuals made no effort to secure for themselves the lands they occupied, frequently moving grounds, and readily sharing them with newcomers. As Kirkpatrick Sale writes, “Owning the land, selling the land, seemed ideas as foreign as owning and selling the clouds or the wind.” William Cronon too comments, “This relaxed attitude towards personal possession was typical throughout New England.” [..] No effort was made to set permanent boundaries around a field that a family used, and fields were abandoned after some years and allowed to return to bushes. What people possessed was the use of the land and the crops; this is what was traded, and this usufruct right could not prevent trespassing. In fact, different groups of people could have claims on the same land, depending on the use they made of it, which might not be the same. Several villages could fish in the same rivers recognizing their mutual rights. And when one left the clan they left everything they had possessed. Yet, these unattached, nomadic tribes had a far deeper communion with the land and agriculture than the privatizing Europeans and so much respect for it that though “they had taken their livelihood from the land for eons, hunting, foraging, planting, fishing, building, trekking,” at the time of the Europeans’ arrival “the land of North America was still by every account without exception a lush and fertile wilderness teeming with abundant wildlife in water, woods, and air.” The result of this lack of attachment to private property among the Native peoples of America was a communal outlook that valued cooperation, group identity, and culture. [..] The dislike for individual accumulation was so strong that they invented the ritual of the potlatch, that is, a periodic redistribution of wealth, to free themselves from it." (from the book "Re-enchanting The World: Feminism And The Politics Of The Commons" by Silvia Federici & Peter Linebaugh)

[–] InTheNameOfScheddi@lemmy.world 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I'm curious how you define socialism, what you think humans aren't ready for, and what alternative do we have and why

[–] ruuster13@lemmy.zip 0 points 3 days ago (1 children)

No you're not. You just think you disagree with my opinion.

Oh I guess you're a better judge on my level of curiosity! Have a wonderful day.

[–] Allero@lemmy.today 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Socialism plays just fine with self-interest and greed, it just limits what you can do in its pursuit.

Communism - yes, relies on your own self-control and moderation in the face of abundance.