this post was submitted on 25 Feb 2026
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Yes, mosques were major centers of learning, and yes, madrasas were formal institutions of higher scholarship. No serious historian denies that. The question isn’t whether they were sophisticated or prestigious. They clearly were.
The debate is whether the madrasa model functioned as a corporate juridical body in the same way the medieval European universitas did.
Madrasas generally operated through:
Endowments (waqf) Individual scholars granting ijazahs (licenses to teach specific texts) Study circles tied to particular teachers Administrative oversight embedded in religious or political authority
What they typically did not have was:
A single incorporated body of masters and students with collective legal standing A standardized multi-faculty structure under one corporate identity Degree hierarchies equivalent to bachelor/master/doctor conferred by the institution itself rather than by individual scholars
That distinction is structural, not civilizational.
Saying “they do stuff differently” understates the difference. The difference is not about religion or content. It’s about legal personality and corporate organization.
You can absolutely argue that the European definition is too narrow or too culturally specific. That’s a fair historiographical critique. But saying there’s “no meaningful difference” isn’t accurate — there are documented differences in governance, legal status, and credentialing models.
So the real disagreement is this:
Do we define “university” broadly as any enduring institution of advanced learning that granted recognized credentials?
Or do we use the term in its specific medieval legal-institutional sense?
If you choose the broader definition, then al-Qarawiyyin clearly qualifies very early. If you choose the narrower juridical definition, then historians debate whether the madrasa structure fits that category prior to modern reforms.
In short, it's not a university. And that's okay. Trying to pigeonhole it into that definition is the issue.
The debate is whether the madrasa model functioned as a corporate juridical body in the same way the medieval European universitas did.
Buddy. You just described Oxford, at least for the first couple hundred years. It's not 1:1, but it's very similar.
Oxford is to this day made up of 43 independent colleges that operate independently, which began as individual teachers teaching their subject. Incidentally, four of those are still today owned by religious institutions.
I feel like you intended this as a "gotcha," but that's literally what I mean by "no meaningful difference." Especially back in the first millennium.
Then you probably have to exclude every university prior to modern reforms. It's really not worth trying to split hairs for most schools.
Yeah, you really thought I was going to agree with you on the obvious answer there, but it really seems obvious to me in the opposite direction.
"If it's the broader definition, it's a university. If it's the narrow definition, it's debatable. In short, it's not a university."
You legitimately don't see it, do you.
No you don't see it. It's not a university. And if we open up the definition then you're still wrong because Chinese institutions like the Guozijian and Yuelu Academy are older in origins and represent sophisticated, long-running centers of advanced learning.
Of the two definitions you gave in that comment for a university, one you admitted al-Qarawiyyin clearly was a university under; and the other you concede that it is debatable.
You didn't say "It's not the oldest university", you said
You didn’t say “It’s not the oldest university”.
That's right. The post you posted said that. But it's not even a university until 1963. If you broaden the definition the post is still wrong because Chinese institutions would be the oldest.
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Your inability to accept that is the issue. If it was a university before, why would it reform to become classified as one if it already was one? That's right, it wouldn't need to because it would have been considered one already.
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