This was suggested to me by another user in the current big thread about this. I haven't finished watching it yet. It's from Poddy Mouth, a black creator. Apparently the video has perspectives from black people with Tourette's included. Might be valuable in this moment.
This is a (very short, < 5 minutes) video from a black elected official with Tourette's. He takes the position that an acknowledgement or apology is necessary. I think this was before the subsequent statement mentioned in the video linked in the post title was made (the following day), so I don't know if that statement would meet the standard this person had in mind for addressing the harm caused.
As I said in my other comments, I don't have the energy right now to really engage with this discussion further, and I don't want to accidentally cause harm by doing so. I just thought this video also belonged in this thread. Also as I said, if you have other such videos please do post them in this thread or in their own post.
Edit: this video, similar to the one linked in the post title, I got from a comment by another user in the previous thread.
I have been asked by another user to include the following info in the post body, which might be relevant to the discussion.
i think you should link this article directly from the guy with tourettes in the post: https://archive.is/GS647
this bit in particular would be helpful i think
Since the fallout, Davidson’s team shares that he’s reached out to the studio handling “Sinners” in order to directly apologize to Jordan, Lindo and production designer Hannah Beachler.
It has been pointed out that the discussions that happened on this post can be hard to follow for people who did not see prior posts discussing this subject. I think I wanted to avoid encouraging directly transferring the arguments from prior posts, but that was probably ridiculous to think. I have added them below.
Previous post: https://hexbear.net/post/7763428
Post before that: https://hexbear.net/post/7750273
Haven't watched the vid but just in general, apologizing for something is just polite even if you had no control over it, heck in some cases even if it's the other person's fault. If I hit someone with my car because they suddenly try to cross the road without looking, I'm still gonna apologize for the harm I caused even if I'm not to blame for the accident.
If someone with Tourettes said something to me that genuinely hurt me, I wouldn't demand or expect an apology, but I'd appreciate one nonetheless.
Relevant quote from the video:
He doesn't need to apologize any more than a person with a wheelchair needs to apologize for taking up extra space. It's a disability, nothing happened, move on. How many times do you want to make this guy apologize for existing with a disability every day? Just the once? Every time he says something inappropriate?
wat
if you've ever spent much time around people who have powerchairs you might know that they not infrequently run into other people and things. especially with the decreased dexterity associated with many conditions that warrant a powerchair, control of said chairs can be suboptimal. (usually paraplegics have manual chairs; only people with affect in 3 or 4 limbs get the power. and some are controlling with eyes or mouth which isn't first choice for good reasons.) do those people apologize when they bash into you, run over your toe, or put a dent in the wall? OF COURSE. unless they are total assholes. (actually a friend of mine liked to make a bit of a game out of gently bumping strangers in public to see if they would apologize to him even though he was obviously at fault, that was to poke fun at people who patronized him for being in a chair and make a point about his own agency... and he was being a bit of an asshole tbf. But he would apologize for any actual mistake and especially if any harm came would feel bad like any normal person.)
eta: at the risk of overstating a point, i would like to really underline a difference between my comment and the one above it:
I find the 1st to be dehumanizing of all involved and mentioned.
Not at all? Maybe this is because I'm autistic and from Germany where people are generally less polite than in the US, but when I say "I'd appreciate it" I genuinely don't mean anything past that. It's not mandatory or expected.
Let's say someone with tourettes has a tic that makes them slap me. I know they have no control over this and they don't owe me an apology. But if they did apologize, I'd think "Oh, how nice of them to apologize even though they didn't have to." Does that make sense? I wouldn't think less of them if they didn't but it'd be a nice gesture if they did. It's like if a friend stays at the end of a house party to help clean up. I don't think less of the friends who left without helping, but the friend who does help? What a nice guy.
Come on don't be obtuse, that's wrong about the video too. An apology isn't "sorry for existing"
In the car analogy, if you hit someone you aren't saying sorry you exist you're saying sorry I unintentionally harmed you.
People don't gotta apologize for having tourettes or cursing or whatever. But a fucking slur to the person the slur is targeted to??? Absolutely. And saying something inappropriate is not the same as a saying a slur.
If he called a trans person the T slur would you fight so hard for him to never apologize for it?
I have been called a slur by people with an illness like five times this year.
I have been punched by a patient with a mental illness twice. (In total, not this year)
Although i will freely admit that my situation as a healthcare worker is atypical.
No one is fighting you on this. People are telling you that a person is being assigned motivations that he did not have, and that while feeling humiliated, denigrated, threatened or offended are all valid responses to this, you should bear in mind that he did not mean to do what he did. He also does not have a racism disease, this didn't reveal his secret inner thoughts and that assuming he is bigoted based on his Tourettes is misunderstanding how the disease works.
As a healthcare worker, do you think that patients do the same harmful behavior towards people they perceive as white vs black vs asian? Do you think doctors vs nurses vs orderlies/aides/techs vs admin vs management all catch quantity/quality of nastiness proportionate to their time in contact with patients? And then subdivide both of those into staff perceived as men vs women.
Or does the ostensibly uncontrolled shit seem to flow in the same way as all others in the expected patterns? yes some people will punch a white USian male doctor; but lots more will swing at the afrocarribean aide when she's trying to set up the food tray, whether she will mention to anyone or not.
these things are not distributed equally
I can't tell if what you want here is an admission of the existence of racism in healthcare, a fully irrelevant point, or that people will use different slurs, which is immaterial. Either way you are not being honest.
What do you do when you don't mean something that happened?
You all are projecting so many things onto this guy, how many time do we have to say we get that it's unintentional but we still don't like being called slurs?
No one is saying you have to like it. I literally said
And in the last thread I specifically said
You are shadowboxing.
but with him being a white disabled person there is still a power imbalance toward Black people, the impact of this situation matters because of his whiteness (his disability is a part of it but it cannot be seperated from his whiteness, that's the core aspect here and the basis of how to approach this intersectionally).
even if he didn't mean to, this impact can't be diminished or waved away by putting the onus entirely on his disability. there are ways to take an anti-racist approach if one knows their disability can have impacts on other marginalized communities to minimize harm before or after an incident such as this.
The man was seated in the back and specifically asked for the BBC to make sure he did not disrupt proceedings and his tics not be broadcast. He took precautions, he did everything that could reasonably be expected of him
That feelings are hurt is not nothing, and I have repeatedly stated the validity of such. But rhetoric like this is frankly absurd
You're the one in control with a car, you can make choices which don't lead to harm. A person with tourettes has absolutely no choice about saying whatever it makes them say. To expect them to apologize for what their disability forces them to say is to expect them to apologize for their existence. You can exist without hitting people with your car, a person with tourettes can't exist without saying whatever it happens to be.
Yes, because he didn't really call anyone anything. If we're being real, his disability made a noise that people understandably misinterpreted as him calling someone a slur. But now you're acting as if he made a choice for which he should apologize. I assure you that if choice was a factor it wouldn't have happened.
A world in which people have to apologize for having a disability is a world in which people with disabilities just decide it's not worth it and self-isolate. I don't want to live in that world. That sucks, and you suck for trying to reinforce it.
You can imagine he didn't call anyone anything but that's untrue. Maybe it's not technically directed at someone but 4 Black people got called N***R. This is a fact choice or not.
In his own movie he said sorry after saying fuck the queen. So now what?
And white people are only expected to apologize for harm caused by disability but Black people get arrested or likely murder, need names ? Kanye West is known is have a few disabilities, he shouldn't apologize for them? ( not to add we as Black folk still hold him to his actions knowing of his conditions)
from the linked video supposedly they had an announcement that he was in the crowd and not to take any offense to anything he said, maybe in the movie there was nothing like that which is why he apologized?
yes black people with disabilities are much more mistreated than white people with disabilities what is the point here?
i dont really think kanye should be held responsible for what's been happening, kinda like i think the fault lies with the bbc in this situation i think way more scrutiny needs to be leveled on the people around him exploiting him and the media for publicizing his very clear mental health issues in order to make money. kanye's worst fault is that he doesnt take meds that are supposed to help with bipolar but even then those texts he released from the guy who like, threatened to "send him back to zombieland" or something to that effect was fucking insane and probably should have seen jail time for it because that probably greatly contributes/contributed to his reluctance to take medicine.
How do you jump from this to assuming any sort of apology would be asking for forgiveness for their existence?
both the n-word and the t-slur are deserving of an apology from a white cis man even with his intersection of disability. he is still white and cis and those slurs deeply harm and impact communities he is not a part of and wields power over.
No lmao its prolly the fact that white people hide behind their marginalized identities all the time and had they been the target of a slur they'd be upset but poc get ignored all the damn time both on this site and out of it. It's the fact that, according to other poc I've been talking to on the poc thread, other situations where tourettes lead to anti-lgbt slurs being thrown nobody had any issue with queer people being upset about it and wanting an apology even if it wasn't the person's intent. Bringing up the fact that white people, even on this site, will take them more seriously than the normalized as fuck slurs about poc, especially the n slur who should be referred to as that instead of word, isn't thinking one is more uniquely deserving it's notifying a gap on white leftists who claim to be our allies. But this is the site that had the "burning the israeli flag is antisemetic cause it has the star of David" discourse where a mod who sent death threats to people and called them antisemites (many of them muslim arabs) only got demoted and no other consequences ever taken lmao dunno wtf I expected.
But please to the mods do ban me from here for ableism or queerphobia despite me also being a disabled and queer poc, I know pointing out how racism isn't taken as seriously by white minorities as their own marginalized identities they expect us to take seriously is not a popular opinion here or anywhere. As a disabled person tbh the most ableist thing here is a bunch of rich fucks without masks all in a room together but ig those disabilities that don't lead to you shouting slurs at random black people aren't worth being upset over in the eyes of white people.
P.S: You don't have to be racist to propagate racist shit btw that's the basic ABCs of leftism that somehow crackers on this site skipped over. Intent doesn't equal impact.
The person you are referring to here: "mod who sent death threats to people" is perm site-banned.
Are there specific comments or posts you are referring to with "other situations where tourettes lead to anti-lgbt slurs being thrown nobody had any issue with queer people being upset about it and wanting an apology" this part?
I saw them still posting days after the whole debacle, ended up blocking them but glad to know they were dealt with even if it took too long.
You'd have to go search through the em_poc threads as I can't recall exactly who spoke about it and if it was recent but I will talk to who it was and find a link.
EDIT: Apparently it was outside hexbear on an lgbtqia site a few years back, I genuinely apologize if my comment made it seem like it happened on this site as I really don't want to spread any misinformation on this already heated topic.
Thank you for looking into that I would 100% want to act on that occurring here. There were many mistakes from the admin/mod team during the discussion of the
emoji and I just wanted to make it clear that action was taken. In addition one of the other admins decided to leave/delete account rather than engage in the discussion about the harm done by them during the emoji discussion.
You're welcome and I apologize if I seemed heated at you as an individual, I've been on edge from a lot of takes here from white users so I'm not mincing any words but I am glad something was learned from the mod team after the emoji discourse. The rest of my original point still stands but directed at the wider public, not anybody in specific.
No need to apologize, thank you for commenting. I appreciate your perspective and mourn the loss of so many voices forced off the site due to our errors. It is my hope that we can continue to learn and improve.
I hope so too. This benefits none of us in the end.
EDIT: I do have a genuinely good faith question but was any mod action taken against the person who compared black people to gusanos and JWs for being upset at this situation and then mentioned something about "the black actors are swimming in black simpathy" when someone said the man with tourettes was swimming in white sympathy? redbolshevik iirc and I do have screenshot proof from the last one, the others he seems to have deleted. The black user they were engaging with and with others seems to have been banned site wide for ableism which is why I ask.
I've been trying to avoid engaging in this thread because I have run out of the energy required to engage properly and in order to reflect on all this and not unintentionally hurt or harm anyone (any more than I may have already), but I know the answer so I figure I will make this comment.
The two users you mention were both site banned for 24 hours. You can see the details in the recent entries of the filtered mod log and the mod log "reasons" reference the code of conduct which is linked at the bottom of every page on the site.
Thank you for the answer. Just wanted to know if action had been taken.
could you edit the original comment then?
removing this post since it's clearly not productive.
what?
disengaging from the discussion out of respect for our empoc comrades.
ah i caught the edited comment before you hit delete then?
Sorry that disabled people make you uncomfortable.
Would you be more comfortable if they groveled at your feet, or would you rather they were simply excluded from public spaces instead?
I'd feel terrible for the people in your life if anyone could actually stomach sticking around long enough to care about you.
The doubling down a lot of people have been doing with regards to their dismissal of disability is knd of insidious imo. Not only should he apologise for his existence, but the people pointing out how Tourettes works are also somehow hurting people.
And this is how I feel about a slur being handwaved away. Because we aren't even saying apologize for the disability but apologize for the slur. And ignoring our frustration to a slur being said is absolutley racist. Notice how we don't give a fuck about the other outburst during the show? Why is that ?
The fact that you dont give a shit about other feelings being hurt than your own is not really a defense of your earnestness in your belief that he should be held accountable for his disease.
Which, let's be clear, is what you are asking.
You're handwaving a slur away. This is about a slur not the disability.
The guy already apologized too so what are you mad about ? Go shout at him that he shouldn't have.
His apology does not remove your total refusal to understand illness or your ableism.
What more do I need to understand? It's unintentional, it's uncontrollable, it's meant to cause inappropriate outburst during inappropriate times, it's alienating. What more does there need to be said that we get it ??
You all need to know Black people don't want to hear NiR even knowing the above. You need to know the word has century long history tied to longstanding racial injustice. NIr ain't the same as any other obscenity it has weight.
Your total refusal to understand people who have black skin is more shocking than his apparent misunderstanding of ableism
he shouldn't apologize for his existence you are making a very uncharitable interpretation, he should apologize for a racist utterance as a white person and how that impacts and harms Black people whether intentional or not. this is basic intersectionality. being marginalized through disability doesn't cancel out other privileges and power imbalances a person has.
(Accidentally replied to the wrong person)