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submitted 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) by glimmer_twin@hexbear.net to c/games@hexbear.net

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live in an impenetrable fortress from which they launch raids on the innocent, never suffering the consequences of the evil they commit
⁠ruled by the most cruel and decadent amongst them, but don’t do anything about it because they dream of being on top of the horrific pyramid of torture and pain one day
⁠innately cruel and horrific society where seeing others suffer is the only source of pleasure
slavers
violence is the only language they understand
sense of racial superiority
⁠entire sectors of society dedicated to coming up with evil and sadistic weaponry with which to commit war crimes
hopelessly addicted to drugs of all kinds
complete lack of compassion
⁠piracy
⁠love to torture

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[–] PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago) (1 children)

my point is that the LoVs worshipping AI is unhealthy, even if that ‘worship’ is to a lesser extent than the Imperium/Chaos’s, or the core’s are perhaps materially more ‘benevolent’ to their worshippers, not that Chaos or the Imperium’s relation to their own deities isn’t also unhealthy

Chaos and other factions can have a healthier relation to AI that the LoV do, even if their relation to the whatever their non-AI deities are is even unhealthier, has been my point

It's still more healthy especially if you consider this isn't happening in the void, as consequences of chaos dealing with AI is mass murder and consequense of Imperium total ban on AI is servitorisation which is one of the worst horrors in entire 40k.

Apart from the major distinction that in the 40k setting ‘souls’ do exist which have an immaterial ineffable quality that can’t be transferred from one vessel to another through simple copying of a connectome, soulstones transfer this soul from a biological being to a semi-inorganic infinity circuit, Ancestor core’s don’t do something similar they copy brains rather than transfer souls

Soul in 40k seems to function as (potential) connection to the warp and it's not even consistent, souls of Kyn are supposedly "weak" as are Tau souls but if we goes by this logic Necrontyr would have even weaker because they didn't had psykers at all, yet C'tan felt it tasty enough to go to a great lenght to eat them. Same is with Slaanesh lusting after drukhari souls as much as the other Eldar, while they genetically engineered what is effectively "soul" from their race.

Possibly but that’s complete speculation not even vaguely hinted at in even outdated canon

Proteus Protocol transfer of soul is confirmed in Eisenhorn novels, Pontius Glaw retains his after using it. If you talk about Kyn, you seem to be very sure that "speculation" isn't true despite parallels existing.

The LoV splitting of from the bulk of humanity and been interacting with the cores for a similar if not longer amount of time, the initial what would become Squat colonisation compilations of STCs/cores happened before the rebellion of the men of iron. And possibly before even their creation(if the theories about Men of Stone being the Votann are true), if any Ironkyn haven’t survived that long or haven’t developed ‘real’ emotions that supports by point about as essential difference between Ironkyn and Men of Iron

My point is that LoV avoided Men of Iron rebellion, which would point to two facts - their relationships with MoI were more healthy and that Ironkyn are Men of Iron, just most possibly as much changed from the basic version as Kyn themselves are changed from basic humanity.

I never said that Chaos were the first to discover Abominable Intelligence(however some among the humans(not the first race to do so) that would later become DM members) rather that they make use of fully sentient AI but it is not the ruler/deity of their faction

This was not my point, i pointed to chaos not having need to create true AI at all.

And the T’au’s approach is working for them(an arguably Chaos’s is as well as their faction as grown in power since the AdMech forbid research on AI and other technologies causing half of the Mechanicum to join Horus), that doesn’t mean either approach to AI is better or intrinsically morally correct or healthier than the other

Half of Mechanicum didn't joined Horus because AI ban, again there was one AI on Mars then and barely anyone even know about it.

If you don't see that Votann and Ironkyn are better than mass servitorisation or putting demons in things in order to kill more people then we truly don't have anything to talk about, so please disengage if that's the case.

[–] ClathrateG@hexbear.net 1 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

It's still more healthy especially if you consider this isn't happening in the void, as consequences of chaos dealing with AI is mass murder and consequense of Imperium total ban on AI is servitorisation which is one of the worst horrors in entire 40k.

I agree about the imperium, I've said that chaos' is arguable but one of the ultimate products of the Ironkyn existence is also mass murder; they are (on the whole labour units also exist)soldiers/killing machines, but that at least the T'au relationship to AI is healthier even when taking into consideration the wider effects that approach has on the culture

souls of Kyn are supposedly "weak" as are Tau souls but if we goes by this logic Necrontyr would have even weaker because they didn't had psykers at all, yet C'tan felt it tasty enough to go to a great lenght to eat them

How does the relative strength of souls relate to the AI conversation? a soul is a soul weak or not

Proteus Protocol transfer of soul is confirmed in Eisenhorn novels, Pontius Glaw retains his after using it. If you talk about Kyn, you seem to be very sure that "speculation" isn't true despite parallels existing.

Ah didn't know that, if you could post an excerpt that'd be great but I' do your word for it, but yes parallels do not make me think the same soul transference is true for LoV uploading especially since the protocol isn't from an STC which is where most of the shared Kin/Imperium tech comes from, and it is likely but not confirmed that the LoV uploading tech came from an STC schematic already included in the cores

My point is that LoV avoided Men of Iron rebellion, which would point to two facts - their relationships with MoI were more healthy and that Ironkyn are Men of Iron, just most possibly as much changed from the basic version as Kyn themselves are changed from basic humanity.

For 'their relationships with MoI were more healthy' more than who's specifically did you mean here?

I disagree with the 'that Ironkyn are Men of Iron' conclusion you make, the fact that they didn't fight during the MoI rebellion doesn't prove they are the same, Ironkyn attacking baseline human during the rebellion might be, and their isolation can explain not being involved on that conflict. I believe the theories that the Votann are the Men of Stone more likely

For 'just most possibly as much changed from the basic version as Kyn themselves are changed from basic humanity.' that's a pedantic argument it can be argued both ways if Abhumans are humans or not, on one hand they are objectively different, or that on the other they same as one because one is the origin of the other

This was not my point, i pointed to chaos not having need to create true AI at all.

They have as much need as other factions to use it; to create weapons

Half of Mechanicum didn't joined Horus because AI ban, again there was one AI on Mars then and barely anyone even know about it.

I didn't say it was the sole reason rather that it(the ban on AI research) along with other reasons like the other bans such as on warp tech and on innovation in general were the trason and Kel-Helbor and his faction joining Horus

If you don't see that Votann and Ironkyn are better than mass servitorisation or putting demons in things in order to kill more people then we truly don't have anything to talk about, so please disengage if that's the case.

Again I never said its worse, you're conflating the very isolated point about the healthiness of relationship to AI with the greater cultures and its affect on them. to succinctly restate my point I think that the LoV worship of Ai is less healthy than the T'au's utilisation of AI