this post was submitted on 08 Oct 2025
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Yeah, why would people not want to use lies and misinformation to promote their side. It truly boggles the mind that anyone could value truth, honesty and integrity.
Is your goal to be truthful or not labeled a terrorist and put into a camp. Take your pick. Truth is subjective.
Why can't I want both things?
Truth is absolute. There is no such thing as "subjective truth" or "personal truth".
Something is either true or it isn't.
You're wrong, entirely. There's an absolute truth but we never get to use that. We can only ever use subjective truth. That's the whole point of the allegory of the cave. The absolute truth is blinding. And your desire to win an argument is creating a subjective truth that is blinding you to something that is critical to understand why they are winning in this era and the left is losing.
Metaphysical nonsense is not a good argument.
It's very literally the argument. Again your truth and mine don't align on that which is more proof
Belief in nonsense is called "delusion". So you go ahead and continue being delusional.
And you are not able to determine if the world is a delusion or some truth. There's not an argument. It is facts. You do not know if the sun actually exists anymore than you can prove we're not a hallucinating brain in a jar floating in space. You have no argument here. You can deny it. But that won't change this. Truth exist. We don't deal with Truths we deal with truths.
What matters is results. You're not a good person if you allow bad people to win because you have a twisted moral or ethical stance that just doesn't matter. Perception is king. The average right winger knows this. The left are out classed. There's a real possibility they'll never catch up and this current situation will be our future but worse
The very first sentence in this paragraph already fails. How do you expect me to take the rest seriously?
It doesn't fail. How do you determine that? You just know cause it is? You have no argument here to say what you're experiencing is not just some grand delusion or dream. Unless you know something I don't. So what is it?
Here is how I know you can't. Your answer will be a non answer, you'll either walk away from this pretending you're too good for this argument or you'll say, it is because.... You know like you can experience it. I already said the brain is capable of delusion and dreams and we know simulation theory isn't new. So do you have some way to determine if it isn't one of those things?
But guarantee you can't provide a half decent honest argument. It'll be some one liner or just hyperbole
Not hyperbole just fact. Like how none of this metaphysical crap about truth ever holds up the instant more than one observer of the same phenomenon occurs.
I've had this dumb argument several times before, and it always fails, determined simply by scientific observation, and the scientific method.
But yes, I am too good for this argument, because I'm not being dishonest with myself about the reality I live in.
And how do you know that other observer is not a p zombie or part of the hallucination.
All this to say that there is even though we want to deal with Truths it isn't something we can deal with. We can only deal with our truths which is subjective, not objective. Bringing this all back. It's what the right are amazing at. They work and put in effort to craft their truth and make others aware of it. The left fail because they believe their truth is going to spread on its own merits.
Because p zombies are a poorly constructed philosophical concept, not a tangible reality.
The idea of something physically identical to humans but lacks consciousness is circular reasoning as the engagement of the physical body and the environment is what creates consciousness.
The same applies to hallucinations. Hallucinations require previous knowledge and interaction with emperical content. So even if you hallucinate the sun, that implies the existence of an actual sun you are hallucinating about.
That's a self defeating argument. Stating that all truths are subjective implies that the statement itself is subjective.
I'm saying that there are two types of truths. One is what is reality but that we are forced to view it through our sense and mind and consciousness which can never actually grasp the real reality. That filter is what makes it a subjective truth. This is to my point that the right understand this and succeeded in a lot of areas the left don't because of this. The left are very rigid and seen to fall on their own truth. I see it in arguments and online. They don't mold things or play around with events the same way the right does. I think they don't because of their relationship to what they see as true or not.
The way the right have reframed arguments about trans, racism, Jeffery Epstein, immigration, government needs to be better understood by the right. Not just called out but instead adapted.
This requires some cognitive dissonance to overcome its logical inconsistency.
You cannot claim there to be a "true" reality while also claiming that our perceptive biases are so strong that we cannot accurately experience/describe it.
This is an unsubstantiated claim that is easily disputed by the concept of empirical content.
Lol, you don't need to adopt a relative perspective of reality to understand the concept of manipulation and lying.
I think you have a problem with moral/ethical constructs moreso than a mind/body problem.
I would argue that the perspective of a shared moral or ethical constructual "truth" is what separates the left and the right.
If we deny the idea of a moral or ethical truth what is the point of a leftist government anyways? If we're all experiencing a personally subjective reality, what is the point of an empathetical society?
I think your individualist perspective is a lot more common on the right than the left.
The method is incompatible with the end goals. The right can lie and create mistrust because chaos and instability is their goal. This is not the same as the left, who are trying to create stability and equity through organization.
You’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. I’m not denying that there’s a real reality. I’m saying we don’t have direct access to it. That’s not cognitive dissonance, that’s just basic philosophy. Kant, Husserl, even modern physics all recognize that we only ever experience the world filtered through perception and cognition. There’s the thing itself, and then there’s what our brains can make sense of. That’s not contradictory. It’s literally the human condition.
Empirical data doesn’t magically escape that filter either. Observation and measurement are still mediated by human perception, interpretation, and context. Science works because we build systems to reduce bias, not because we somehow step outside of subjectivity. It’s intersubjective, not absolute.
And I never said you have to believe in relativism to understand lying or manipulation. What I am saying is that the right understands the power of framing and narrative, and the left often doesn’t. They treat “truth” as something fixed and self-evident, when in practice it’s always being shaped, reframed, and fought over. That’s not the same as saying “nothing is true.” It’s saying that truth has to be communicated and maintained, not just assumed.
The moral and ethical part is a separate issue. You can still have values, compassion, and principles while acknowledging that your version of truth is a construct. Empathy doesn’t require metaphysical certainty. It just requires agreeing that suffering matters.
And as for the right thriving on chaos, sure, but that doesn’t mean the left can’t learn from how they weaponize language and perception. Understanding those methods doesn’t make you immoral. It makes you strategic. There’s a difference between manipulation and persuasion. The right bends narratives to serve their goals; the left tends to just call them out, assuming reason will win on its own. It doesn’t.
So yeah, the point isn’t to become dishonest. It’s to stop being naïve about how people actually process information and form beliefs. Reality might be objective, but politics runs on perception.
No, you're just not being consistent with your own claim. You've gone as far as to say that the existence of the sun is a subjective matter. Now you're predicating your claim with "direct access".
Right, but none of them argue that the biases in perception means we cannot come to a consensus in objectivity.
And how do you know that the thing itself exist? Couldn't it just be a hallucination....?
Again, you are falsely defining truth or reality to be a state devoid of any subjectivity. Just because there is subjectivity in perception and observation does not mean we cannot come to a consensus of what an objective truth or reality is.
Again.... Maybe they just believe that "truths" (human construct) like human rights should be self evident and not up for debate.
That is not consistent with your previous claims, you are moving the goal post.
You can, but there's no inherent reason to if it isn't consistent with your "version of truth".
"Suffering matters" is a self evident claim reliant on metaphysical certainty.......
Who says they don't? The left is a pretty big spectrum, most of which is largely absent in North America. I think the problem you're having is confusing leftist with liberals, as liberals only want to preserve the status quo, and are thus less likely to engage in more manipulative tactics.
Again, I think liberals in this country are walking a tight rope of dispelling the fascist regime without dispelling the suprestructure that allows it to be successful in the first place. It's hard to call out fascist without also disparaging the capitalistic system that the liberals are trying to preserve.
Give me a truth. I bet it'll be subjective.
The sun exists.
How do you know. If I tell you it doesn't exist how do you prove it. You can say we see it. And I can tell show you illusions or examples of how we hallucinate or theories and simulations. There is a Truth no doubt. But we deal with truths always.
Whether truth exists is a different question from whether we one can prove it.
However, we know the sun exists because of its effects on us. Light, heat, gravity.
The multiple independent effects which can be experienced all around the world, reliably and consistently.
But that doesn't prove that those really exist. I can dream/Imagine/hallucinate/simulate that those things exist and that they work together. It's like trying to nail down the question of who you are. Are you some observer inside your brain or are you something more holistic. There are absolutely things in my body I don't control. It acts on its own. I observe and at times act against my own desires, needs and wants fairly often. So who am I if I don't have full control of me.
All this to say while we argue this, this Republicans innately understand the truth is not something that is easily understood. They expertly have used it to create the current world while people on the left scratch their balls wondering what's wrong with the world. What's wrong is that the left have not adapted in 60 years. They've actually devolved. They are miserable and toxic. They reject any advances in technology. There actively alternate themselves from tools and resource and social groups who do not meet their ever changing and growing demands for moral and ethical superiority. The left have fallen behind and they use excuses about ethics and morality as the reason they're failing instead of taking ownership for being a regressive group with almost nothing to offer anyone in today's world.
Sure, that's why we need multiple independent observers.
But you're still back to the problem of knowing if they exist or are just p-zombies
Don't you need to solve thst problem to decide if they're worth lying to??
No my point is that truth no matter what will always be something that can be twisted. There is no hard truth but leftist act like there is. The right don't bother. They know what they want and use it to twist that left into knots. Need to play that game back. Need to reject these morals and ethics that are used like excuses.