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Crunch time: Democrats ready for shutdown standoff over Republican health cuts
(www.theguardian.com)
this post was submitted on 28 Sep 2025
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It’s helpful to keep in mind that there’s nothing democratic about the DNC it’s just a bunch of old people colluding with corporations and propping up geriatrics as a vanity show. They haven’t even offered their voters the illusion of representation in decades. They are all cooperators in this. They do budget show downs every year, at this point it’s just to create some bond volatility.
Its the party trying to maintain the current system and improve it incrementally. The real problem is that as long as the republicans win they have no real incentive to improve much. If republicans perennially lost to the point of being inconsequential the party would quickly split.
I’ve been on this planet for almost 40 years now and frequently talk to my 95 year old grandma about politics and world affairs. Things stopped getting incrementally better a long time ago and have gotten incrementally worse. We made small advances forward in between giant leaps back the last 25 years. All of this dictatorship business has been planned and implemented slowly over decades. The degradation of the middle class has been a bipartisan effort. There’s really no more room to pretend like trumps charisma has carried this strange new world, and not the careful planning of the political class and the billionaire class… supported by the millionaires thinking they can be in the club. It’s just self perpetuating rot on both sides.
improvements happen but its been two steps back and one forward since reagan and more more like 3 since bush jr and now we seem to be taking a dozen back. Take out the republican controlled periods and we would have advanced pretty decently and that is without all the time wasted recovering all the back steps.
I agree with that for the most part. Democrats never solved the inequality, education, and Fox News indoctrination in time. I see no way out of it at this point. That’s on them for focusing on small minority issues instead of policy that helps the majority of voters.
I agree with what I believe to be your meaning. They often would latch onto small or fringe things when education, healthcare, work rights, and such would help so much more. If you look at something like gay marriage its like great and all but there was so many fixes at the state level and such that it did not do much but give a feel good victory. Meanwhile obamacare with the pre existing conditions booted had likely a much more beneficial effect for people who were gay. Gun control is another one. I mean both are things I believe in but education, healthcare, work rights, safety nets in general is what helps the most.
Obamacare: our biggest legislative victory in over 20 years. Results are in it consolidated power in the hands of insurance companies who abused it for profit.
Boy you obviously did not have medical bills before or after. Its requirement on money going to care and limiting profit make a big deal along with the no prexisting conditions and required care. Unfortunately 2017 was about the best we saw of it. It actually was sorta good to get things approved end of year as the insurers had to meet their spend or give it back.
I defaulted on $20,000 worth of medical debt in 2015 and paid it off for like $2,000 to a creditor. My medical debt from pre-Obama care came with me ❤️ my deductible was $13,000 and I never hit it with Obama care. I just paid for the appointments and the additional insurance fee. So yeah, I guess maybe my experience was different than some.
Honestly it sounds mainly that you are salty that obama care did not come earlie. Which I totally get. I would have liked it in the eighties (barring that fact I would prefer a single payer system that went back to like ww2)
We all would prefer a single payer system, we are the largest economy in the world. It makes no sense to not do collective bargaining as the wealthiest health care consumers Lmfaoo.
No I’m only salty because for me: when I hit the market place… it resulted in a scam. $3,500 premium with a $13,000 deductible, or else I paid a $3500 tax penalty to Uncle Sam. It did not result in adequate healthcare for me and actually it became harder to get to the doctor every year after. Less practicing doctors in my region.
Gay marriage was actually a great one for the dems, it was already popular. They didn’t even push it. They waited until it was safe and then moved it through. Took credit for a public change in perspective that they did not participate in. If they cared about education, they could’ve easily restored it after Bush left, but they conveniently let everyone become illiterate. They’ve always just had really poor stances on guns, never the kind of compromising policy that would actually be entertained by anyone.
We all believe in education, workers rights, civil rights, infrastructure: at least for ourselves. The only people that don’t believe in that shit we keep electing to Office. It’s both sides of the party. They both believe in making a lot of money for the people that donate to them and keep them in power.
There are people in office who believe in these things and its the majority of democrats. Its reductionist to just wave that they all don't care. That being said there are some obvious corporate handouts that go on but many of those came from crises that further came from deregulation.
It’s reductionist to call the government taking your rights away a two party system when one of them is in control and breaking the system. Wake up honey there’s no constitutional law anymore. The democrats are just there to keep you from rioting until 2027. After that it won’t matter.
Democrats don't stop shit when it comes to rioting anymore than the republicans do. Sounds like you need to wake up. The constitution and the bill of rights are massive compared to the alternative and as much as we all bitch about our system and how good europe/canada/australia may be they all have similar issues and knowledgeable folks over there will point to aspects of our system that they wish they had. I mean we have 27 amendments up from the original 10 which im not sure any other system as as many modification. Granted one is a repeal of another. Like it or not some folks will not do the violence thing regardless. We die all the same so you should at least appreciate that.
Obama care was a personal favorite. It forced me to pay the government $3000 for not having insurance, or paying an insurance company $3000 a year for having worthless insurance I wasn’t going to use. Like we easily could do Medicaid for all and regulate pharmaceutical companies insurance companies. We could open competitive government run options to keep insurance honest and away from Medicare…. We chose like the health care plan that benefited insurers and inspire Luigi
No doubt medicaid for all would be better and even a public option (which the dems pushed for) would be a bit better. Obamacare is better than before it though with pre-existing conditions and everything being denied. Now it has gotten worse but that was because the republicans kicked out the requirement which had a cascading effect on insurers which had a cascading effect on hospitals. I will not say its awesome or what we should have but half a loaf is better than no loaf. Its a good example of incremental change unfortunately its also a good example of a step forward followed by a step back.
Just going to point out that health care quality in my experience has gone down since 1999
Yeah so I mean there is not much to discuss then. My experience has been different. It was definitely for me worse before obamacare partly with pre existing conditions, partly due to preventative care being required to be covered outside of deductible and such, and partly because they did not deny as much (which I took were from the spend requirements on care). Surviving healthcare roulette for so many years in the 80's made me so happy to have some stability around it. I have to say though defending obamacare is one of those wierd thing. I like it better than nothing but yeah would like to get to civilized single payer system.
It is better than nothing, and it was better planned than implemented. Like all good legislation with good intent it got perverted by corporates trying to save their profits
Let’s look at this democratically, if you are not part of the 50% of this country that is being pushed into poverty, how on earth are you going to protect your assets when it’s 60-70% of this country that’s been pushed out of the middle class? We are at the point of wealth inequality where it makes no sense for the average citizen to keep voting to subsidize billionaires businesses and tax returns. Yet we still get massive turnout for status quo. Watching you assholes vote to transfer my wealth and future to a billionaire every year to protect a suburban lifestyle that is as parasitic to your country and planet as could be imagined. I’m not trying to come to terms with anyone lol I don’t speak for a political ideology I’m just a disgusted American who has been completely disenfranchised from society in the last 30 years. All the ladders pulled up and you think your spot is this society is safe. Yes literally all of you are my enemy. Squandered the education that a great nation gave you and watch as a dictator erases your history and rights lmfaooo. I’m just want to witness the divine retribution for everyone’s folly. We’re past the point of redemption. We’d look better as a radioactive crater than we do right now: and judging by the posture of leadership, I think that one is still on the table. Personally I’d just pray to your god as we set the table for WW3
I don't know what spot you think I have in society but when it comes to a choice between better or worse I choose better. What specific action did you take that if everyone took would solve all this? I voted for the better choice and I think if everyone had we would not have had reagan and bush jr and trump. We would still have regulation (and not have the economic collapses from deregulation) and 911 would not have happened (clinton/gore were well aware of al kaida as a danger) and we would be working globally on the environment and climate change.
Then incrementalism has either failed or has succeeded in making things worse.
righty oh. need to get rid of those pesky forward steps to really make progress. /s
You support an ideology that has failed. Spectacularly. If you support incrementalism knowing how useless it is, it's because you like how useless it is.
Except it has. Incrementally. We still have the affordable care act, we still have a bevy of rights (for now). It could be better but its better than worse. Worse is strangely, worse than better. I have yet to see any alternative do anything effective. Maybe if it does someday it will mean something but for now its just folks blowing hot air.
Incrementalists make sure that can't happen.
LOL. The lets trade better for worse crowd keeps better things from happening. The alternative have yet to do anything except complain online how if they existed they would do better. There is no try. DO!
Incrementalists killed the minimum wage increase for you. Incrementalists killed almost all the tangible individual benefits in Build Back Better for you. Incrementalists had it in their power to implement a public option and chose to let people go bankrupt and die for you. Incrementalists love to claim that gay marriage was theirs, but if the courts hadn't stepped in we'd still be talking about civil unions. Incrementalists love almost nothing more than a false maximum they can claim is the pinnacle.
The only times I've seen incrementalists take decisive action is to block progress and, of course, to sell weapons to their favorite person for their favorite activity.
This just ingnores the reality. These were compromises. Yeah that dirty word. You are comparing less good outcome with the alternative which is no wage increases instead of some and no build back better and no obamacare. The problem in all these cases is the republicans. You have to eliminate the worst crap all over you before you can even start getting really clean. If you try rubbing sanitizer on yourself without the soap you will not get rid of the crap and will end up less clean than just the soap.
You are playing "got mine and fuck you forever" to everyone who didn't get the wage increase that only federal workers got because as long as ONE person gets something, incrementalists act like it's solved forever for everyone.
You have to get out of the sewer first. Incrementalists treat a decrease in the rate at which the sewage as rising as a permanent solution. Those of us up to our armpits in the shit they refuse to do anything about, no matter how many times we give their worthless complicit asses majorities aren't going to accept "look at those people over there whose lives we made better. Your problems are all solved now shut up" with the same level of satisfaction as the person who says it.
What are you even talking about with federal workiers??? You were talking minimum wage which at one point did not exist and has gone up regularly although not enough. This is like talking with someone on business speak. Don't do the better thing because magically something that does not currently exist is better. Its like just think out of the box and actualize horizontal integration and drive synergistic growth. What exactly is the alternative solution you are suggesting.
Well, I thought that when you referred to minimum wage going up, you were referring to biden's executive order to raise the minimum wage for federal workers and expecting me to be happy with it. And since one person's wages went up, fuck everyone else forever. You don't care. Incrementalism means "do as little as possible to be able to claim you didn't do absolutely nothing and order your critics to be happy with it."
Your position is "be glad you even have a minimum wage." That wasn't a question. You're fucking right it hasn't gone up enough. And it was the incrementalists you're simping for that made certain it didn't go up enough. Which was my whole point. When we give democrats majorities, incrementalists stand in the way of necessary progress. Progress they promised, but have absolutely no intention of ever implementing. They always find some procedural bullshit to throw in their own way and unconvincingly pretend that they're disappointed. Or not. Sinema's gleeful thumbs down remains the party's clearest most enduring message to the working class.
But incrementalists can be proactive and industrious when it's something they want to do, and they're willing to violate actual law to do so. When there's Palestinian hospitals that haven't been properly introduced to American-made munitions, they leap into action, law be damned.
Still waiting for the alternative to making things better as you can which you call incrementalism. Speak to me of the great victories of your alternative. I have had many a back and forth with your type and its all complaints and hot air. Having republicans run everything is not the way to go.
Actually using the majorities we give them to do the things they ran on.
The great victories of incrementalism are all preventing any victory by progressives. Congratulations on your victories over working people and living Palestinians.
How? How is incrementalism preventing these great progressive victories? Again its all out of box integrate to new synergy buzz speak that I am hearing.
Progressives aren't the ones who just happen to have just enough no votes every time. That's the incrementalists blocking progress.
Incrementalism has failed to make things better. It is inadequate to the challenges its proponents claim it to be a solution for. We've tried incrementalism for decades and we're staring down fascism as a direct result of the utter uselessness of incrementalism and incrementalists. You're touting a 15 year old law that's based on heritage foundation policy that wasn't far enough to the right for incrementalists, so they nerfed it even further.
Incrementalism is great for fascists and the single best cover that cryptofascists ever invented.
Incrementalism has worked for decades and has been progressive. Just not progressive enough and ultimately it will never be progressive enough for what any particular person thinks is progressive. Some people who voted for trump honestly think in their brain that maga is progressive. What you call incrementalism is just work. The every day work of a democratic government system. Not working and or achieving anything and saying you totally would if other folks who are working would not do such a half assed job is just comical. Honestly I think we are just at an impasse. Im not going to stop trying to make things better and im not going to put my efforts to get you to help pull as its wasted effort. You will be you and I will be me and I will reduce, reuse, recycle, find as much joy as I can in simplicity, and engage in all levels of civic engagement available to me as long as I draw breath to push for a better society.
It worked at the only thing it's for: preventing progress until republicans can get back in and wreck shit. I don't care what centrists pretend is progressive. Incrementalism has been responsible for decades of sliding rightward. And it's by design.
It certainly has not. Its in the name it moves progressive but slowly. The slide comes from allowing the right to win and move the window. Again this is stupid at this point as its clear we disagree.
I've shared many examples in this thread of the people you keep falsely calling "progressive" killing progressive legislation for you. You've ignored every last incrementalist victory over the people you want to suffer.
Democrats spent all of last year supporting an ongoing genocide. They are completely uninterested in moving the window in any direction other than right, just like you.
Oh the us controls all countries like puppets on string argument. Since the democrats have been out israel has gotten more powerful weapons, aid to palestine has been eliminated, and israel is outright annexing palestine. All because of people like you. Im out.
When centrists' policy is implemented for them by republicans and they have to pretend they dislike it, they blame anyone to their left and only their left.
The democrats preyed on the culture war first. They used it to cement their base. This is their monster too. It was easier to stalemate controversial topics than provide leadership, and lawmaking.
Im not sure if they preyed on it first. I mean there is plenty of stuff that goes waaaayyyyy bck. But yeah its bad and a both sides thing, or as close to one as your gonna get. Basically politics is bad.
Ya true, to be more fair, they had a great run with culture war 2006-2016
I'd argue Democrats have instead intentionally hampered any real progress, not trying to improve it "incrementally." Or at least, they sure don't seem to mind when the Republicans stop them from doing anything worthwhile over the last 20 years.
I disagree. Last 20 years have had 12 years of democrats which resulted in obamacare, dodd-frank, end to don't ask don't tell, fair pay act, daca, iran nuclear deal, paris accord, restoration of cuban relations, loan forgiveness (despite all the stuff knocked down they still got the save plan), getting rid of non competes. Yeah and some were knocked down by republican actions but thats the problem. Then you add that a lot of time was dealt with stimulus from the bad economic practices of republicans again and having to wind down their wars. Its like your blaming them for not improving the building when they have to spend most of the time putting out the fires. Get rid of the people starting the fires and plenty of progress can be made.