Cross-posted from "TRUE communism!" by @Muaddib@sopuli.xyz in !politicalmemes@lemmy.world
this post was submitted on 02 Jul 2025
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The Marxist equivalent of "but the GDP..."
You're so right, it would have been way better for everyone in the territory of the USSR to be illiterate and poor and starving, so they wouldn't have cared so much when the Nazis effortlessly murdered everyone from western Poland to eastern Siberia. Who even needs industrial output when you could have a """horizontally-organized""" bandit kingdom named after its unelected leader?
Ye ofc the only alternative the the Stalin regime was stagnation and defeat, clearly nothing else could have possibly have happened...
Why would there need to be an alternative? It was already the best possible version of what could have happened, within the bounds of a crushing siege by the entire capitalist world on one hand, and basic human fallibility on the other. There is no other political leader in history with a higher proportion of correct decisions to mistakes than Stalin, and they were mistakes, as in consequences not intended from actions taken earnestly to protect the people of the USSR - unlike the actual unspeakable atrocities being committed constantly by every single imperialist nation at the time, as well as before and since.
Even just on its own terms, the USSR was unimaginably more humane than what came before:
what existed outside of it:
and what came after:
This is called the "Eastern Cross" by the way, a demographic phenomenon unique to former nations of the USSR, where the death rate and birth rate suddenly cross over each other in the 90s. It's way better that this happened, of course, than the USSR being run by """authoritarians""" who would protect their people from sabotage and murder using the necessary amount of violence (that is, still less than their enemies).
But I forgot, we're comparing an actual nation that had to actually exist in the dirt and blood of the real world, to the geometrically perfect platonic anarchist society that lives in your head, so I guess I have to concede. I'll go tell all the communists in the third world to pack it up and disband their organizations and scratch out all the hammers and sickles so you can go tell them how to avoid being assassinated by the CIA the right way.
Thanks, and to add even further, this had global effects too
High living standards and strong workers' rights and compensation in the USSR forced capitalist nations around the world to make concessions to their workers. Once the USSR had been destroyed, the concessions could be rolled back and the profits guzzled by the capitalists.
It's crazy that the absolute lowest mortality rate the empire ever managed was still like double the Soviet Union's mortality rate during the middle of WW2.
it's not like stalin purged the census statisticians for months when he didn't get the statistics he wanted
eh we all know capitalist oligarchies are always worse comrades
Damn, I didn't know you could bluff the Wehrmacht with fake industrial output. Who knew you could just lie about how much steel you were producing and simply will more divisions of tanks into existence?
Also, more importantly than that, what the fuck are you talking about? Do you have a single shred of evidence to back up that claim? In fact, do you have a single shred of evidence to back up ANY of your claims? I've never even heard a claim like that before. Did you just make it up off the cuff? Do you care about evidence? Do you read books? Have you even the slightest singlest iota of interest in the actual factual history of the world, or are you just a larper who prefers a particular set of drapery on the society they idly daydream about?
I care because these were people who actually lived and fought and bled for a better world and I will not have some imperial core shitstain besmirching their name by drooling out the cheapest CIA propaganda ever produced. Are you stupid? What do you think living inside a successful propaganda campaign would look like? Have you ever considered why your opinions align exactly with the interests of the US State Department? Go and read Blackshirts and Reds by Michael Parenti, it's short and you'll learn something.
is it just me or is literally every single liberal rebuttal in this thread purely spoken from an armchair deep within a mind palace?
Yeah, doing the same thing without imperialism, massacres, oppression, population displacements, secret police, thought crimes, and other stalinist atrocities was just not possible. I understand now. Those are things are a necessary path to a society which will eventually transform into a liberal capitalist cleptocracy.
Likewise imperialism, slave trade, enclosures, exploitation was clearly the only way for the UK to transform into a democracy you see, and they too fought the fascists so they were clearly on the right side of history.
I swear, MLs and their fetishizing of stats are exactly like the nroliberals fetishize GDP growth.
Oh shit yeah, I forgot about all that bullshit the CIA made up.
Wait a second, THOUGHT CRIMES???? THOUGH CRIMES??????? Do you think 'Thought Crimes' were a real thing that existed outside of the anticommunist screed '1984'?
Anyways, on to your next point, oh, it's the most unreasonable fucking false equivalency I've ever seen in my life. The UK is not and has never been a democracy, it is a dictatorship of the bourgeoisie that has occasional political pageantry where it pretends the people have any power at all, just like every single nation that is not communist. Fighting the Nazis is the literal only time the British Empire did a single good thing, and their problem with German fascism was the German part, not the fascism part. And then they immediately started drawing up 'Operation Unthinkable', the plan to resume an invasion of the USSR using mainly Wehrmacht soldiers, a plan I assume you support wholeheartedly as it would have destroyed what was obviously the most evil nation in the world at the time, the one whose soldiers liberated Auschwitz.
didnt they fight the boers at one point. would have been much better if they beat the amerikkkans too tbh
That's true and good, but even then, in the process they also invented the concept of the concentration camp. I mean, rounding up civilians into cramped, unsanitary conditions with little food so that they all die of disease is a pretty obvious idea, but they systematized and came up with the euphemism for it.
That is in fact very obviously true. If they hadn't developed their economy far faster than any other society in history, they couldn't possibly have produced enough food and war materiel to defeat the Nazis, which I hope we can agree was an extremely important thing for the Soviets to be able to do.
lol just take up a hobby or go do some productive labour, why do you do this to yourself
I'm autistic. I know I should just disengage but sometimes I can't help it.
plenty of better ways to spend your time, is all i want to say. like, is this really fulfilling for you or does it just feel empty afterwards?
Again, I'm autistic. I can't always help myself from replying to goading and disinfo. It's a waste of time for everyone involved.
your commitment to maintaining a pure idealistic ignorance about 20th century history, in the face of many people much more informed than you doing their best to educate you, does imply a certain tenacity. however, i can't go as far to say that it's commendable in any way. you should read some books.
You, apparently: fuck those kids
What a stupifyingly disingenuous statement, but then again about right for a campist.
You looked at a chart that outlined improvements in quality of life that included a boom in agricultural output, aka, literally feeding the children and called it
Clearly the tankie brain cannot comprehend criticism from the left...
It's alright, don't worry about it.
Being so ideologically rigid that you'd let children starve to avoid "state authoritarian bureaucracy" is not actually something to be proud of, lib
what is your opinion on left coms (i.e. like, bordiga fans/council communists that like lenin but hate the USSR from like 1922 or whatever onwards)