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this post was submitted on 04 Sep 2023
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nonsense. The dems pulled the dirtiest tricks to kneecap bernie - including ALL of them dropping out on super Tuesday. They battled bernie harder than they fucking did trump. Don't spread garbage like this
This was, of course, documented in the Wikileaks e-mails, whose contents were largely ignored by the mainstream media.
They never disputed the contents either.
Wikileaks selectively leaks emails to push whatever narrative they want, including leaving off timestamps to make you think emails were sent before they were. The RNC was hacked too, but we didn't see those emails. There's one corrupt country that hasn't ever seemed to be attacked by Wikileaks. I wonder what all this has in common?
speculation
Spin
Bernie had a surprising turnout, and the Dems had to pull all the stops to prevent him from being the front runner. Meaning something in the ballpark of a quarter of Americans who actually bother to vote were supporting him. Far from a majority, but to your point, it's a big and growing political force.
But I think the point stands that they aren't likely to swing a general election. Progressives (those that actually vote at all) are almost certainly going to vote for Biden regardless how how much he panders to them. This election will be decided by a fairly small number of centrists and moderate Republicans that may have been alienated by Trump who happen to live in swing states.
Unless, of course, Biden does something monumentally stupid and pisses off the progressives so bad that they are willing to risk another Trump term and vote 3rd party, which seems unlikely.
The way people vote and the policies people actually want enacted are very different. If you're talking specifically about how people vote, there's a lot you can infer as to why they vote the way they do, but if we're talking about actual policy - if people voted for policies instead of politicians, the vast majority of americans are very progressive. This is the point I was disagreeing with the commenter on.
The polls bear it out time and time again - people want progressive policy, but are afraid to vote for progressive politicians, and hedge their bets on the "safe" candidate.
This, so much.
It's so, so exhausting to keep on being told that "voters don't want progressive policies because they don't vote for progressive candidates" when the same people saying that are also the ones working the hardest (and spending the most money) to defeat progressive candidates by presenting them as 'risky' and doing their best to get voters to vote for the candidates backed by more money.
I would love to see American voting switch to Ranked Choice Voting. I'm tired of hearing the parties leverage voters' fear of splitting the vote into compromising on a vote that 'can win'- that pattern wags the dog far too much for my liking.
It's also frustrating to watch the Dems fight against taking up policy that young people say they want because "young people don't vote". It's as if people won't vote for you if you keep on promising not to do the things they want
Please don't assume I'm entitled or an idiot, and I do vote.
I vote consistently for Democrats in the general because they're the least-bad option. I participate in the primaries. I am trying to help, try not to shoot the messenger.
With that said, this was a pitch-perfect example of jumping to the wrong conclusion and being a jerk about the thing you imagined (even though I am not it). I should be allowed to express frustration over what I see as self-defeating behavior, and sure enough you volunteered to exemplify it by turning what could have been a constructive exchange into a shitty one. Do better.
Stop being an entitled idiot and Vote. It's that simple. Turnout for local elections, primaries, and off big ticket years is abysmal. There are no excuses. You have the power to vote for whomever you want. You can even write-in someone. Stop complaining that the status-quo won't change for you. You aren't going to get what you want by saying it. Vote or Run for those policies. If a majority of people don't agree with you, then that's that. You can push for ranked choice, but you aren't going to get it complaining about it. You have to vote.
Yeah, Trump's cult and "Vote Blue No Matter Who" don't help things either. The election system needs a major overhaul or we're going to keep getting incompetent old guys.
It absolutely helps. Republicans make things worse. The worst Democrat keeps things the same. Same > Worse. Vote in the Primary to decide on what Democrat gets to run.
Doesn't help that Sanders dropped out and we ended up with Biden, who everybody thinks is a moderate but says racist shit all the time "by accident."
People think he's this sweet grandpa, but he's an old man with dementia and a questionable history, who needs to retire. But he gets away with it because he's got a D after his name.
I can’t give a shit about any negative traits that Biden has that every Republican also has worse. It comes off as apathy spreading bullshit and that’s how we got a criminal con man who attempted a coup.
And the best the Democrats could do is some racist geriatric with dementia who belongs in a nursing home. But don't worry, he understands the wildfires in Maui because he burned his kitchen down once and had some ice cream.
With Democrats, every issue that matters just gets pushed off to the next election. "Give me four more years and I'll legalize abortion again!" And during covid, they became the fascists they pretend to hate, enforcing mandates and then partying in Republican-led states like Florida. "Rules for thee but not for me!"
This is why I don't take either side seriously. We know where Republicans stand, but the Democrats aren't doing any better and it's all somebody else's fault.
Bullshit. You want better Democrats? Vote. Until Democrats attempt to overthrow the government I don’t want to hear your same sides brain dead take.
Bold assumption there. I've voted in almost every election since I've turned 18, but the brain dead ones always win anyway.
And yes, this includes primaries.
We don’t always get what we want. Write and call your representatives and clearly articulate what you’re looking for. If that fails, run yourself. We do the best we can.
We need an overhaul of the election system and an end to gerrymandering, but those are never going to happen.
In the meantime, it's just fucking ridiculous how I can't criticize Biden without being written off as a Nazi. The man is not the wholesome grandpa figure everybody seems to think he is. The last presidential election had two senile men with dementia who belong in a nursing home, not the white house, and all the democrats who were fascists during covid were re-elected. Roe got overturned because the democrats didn't bother to codify it since the 1970s. Contacting congresspeople is like talking to a brick wall. I don't fucking know what to do anymore.
You have to read the room. If you go into an ER and start complaining that all the snacks in the vending machine are expired, you’re not wrong, there are just way more pressing issues. No one is in love with Biden as a candidate and it doesn’t matter. Like you said, the election system isn’t going to change, especially not by next November.
Idk where the fixation on “wholesome grandpa” comes from but he’s done just about all we can ask of him. He’s an 80 year old guy who has adapted as much as anyone his age has. I can’t concern myself with what he did four decades ago if he’s changed and doing better now. Especially when the other side is eager to return to how things were sixty+ years ago.
Your comments about dementia and Covid restrictions being fascists are childish.
I haven’t looked up whether any Democratic majority had a path to codify abortion into law since the 70s, have you? It’s easy to say they should have. It took decades to get healthcare reformed and that wasn’t near as radical or as major.
Sure could've fooled me on every site that isn't an alt-right hate speech platform. People fucking love the guy even though he has a racist history that he seems to be trying half-heartedly trying to make up for today. Even Kamala Harris admitted that his racist policies affected her. An 80 year old man should not be in the White House.
It's childish to expect the President to be able to read a teleprompter and to expect freedom in a country that bills itself as "the land of the free"? There was a whole litany of issues that was caused by the covid lockdowns, like domestic violence, alcoholism, stunted development in children, people being unable to say goodbye to their dying friends and family members, mental health, and supply chain disruptions. And the government declaring what is "essential" or not is classic fascism. What was really telling to me is how many democrats set restrictions in their areas and then either just didn't follow them or went on vacation somewhere like Florida so they didn't have to wear a mask or lock down. "Rules for thee but not for me" is classic fascism, dude.
And the only alternative is a cult that tried to overthrow the government in 2021. Both sides are different breeds of fascism at this point. It's fucked up.
I don't know what to tell you. We went through the process, a majority voted for him both in the primary and general elections and now he's President. In another year we will go out and do it again. I'm not looking for a deity or idol. I'm looking for an experienced person to not fuck it up. He meets that criteria fine, and I have more important races to care about at the state and local levels where there are still seats to be flipped.
What's your point? It would have been better to do nothing about Covid? Over a Million people died with pre-vaccine restrictions. Anyway it's looked at, given the information and resources we had at the time there was a net savings of life even factoring in loss of life as result of the economic downturn. We are now in a much better place with emergency preparation, and vaccine technology so we likely won't be doing anything as drastic in the future.
I can only really remember Gavin Newsome and Nancy Pelosi being photographed without masks, I have no problem criticizing them for not.
It's absolutely ridiculous to make a same sides argument over Wearing masks and an attempted coup. The latter is the worst thing to happen to the country in our life times bar none. Everything pales in comparison.
The government declaring what's essential and what's not is a scary proposition and with the current political climate, ripe for abuse. And if people keep thinking this is a rational thing to do, this will keep happening.
They're talking about bringing back covid restrictions in the United States. Plenty of people are having lockdown nostalgia. This is going to repeat itself because unfortunately, the current options are the politicians who enacted these fascist policies, or a party that's trying to stage a coup (again, fascism). And Bill Gates says this is going to happen every 10 years going forward. He's rich enough to make it happen.
They weren't the only ones. A few politicians in my state enacted covid restrictions then were seen and photographed in other areas so they didn't have to abide by THEIR OWN RULES.
I'm not talking about wearing masks. I'm talking about the Democrat governors and mayors shutting parks and businesses down and telling people they can't see their friends and families, while they're going out and doing the very things they told everybody else not to do. Once politicians take away freedom, they seldom give it back for long. Both sides know enough people are gullible enough to fall for their antics.
If anyone thinks that democrats gave two shits about covid, let me remind you that large gatherings were allowed and endorsed by them for causes they agreed with in mid-2020. This doesn't tell me they cared about covid. It tells me they're becoming the fascists they pretend to hate.
What would you have them done otherwise? Difficult decisions had to be made, and locking everyone down is impossible. Like it or not there are essential workers. They should have gotten major hazard pay imo. There’s no one else to make that call but government. Sure it can be abused, but that’s true of anything always.
Are you reading conspiracy theories? https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-covid-lockdown-masks-tsa-445214096334
Everyone should abide by the rules in place, especially those that vote for the restricts. I agree with you 100%
You are conflating a lot of things with your last point. The early lockdowns were in late March and April, and the gatherings were protests in the Summer. The initial lock downs were during a time of limited to no knowledge on what we were dealing with. Wearing masks and staying inside are pretty much standard pandemic response. By the summer we had much more information indicating that spread was mostly done indoors. I don’t know what events you’re talking about during lockdowns but I can only imagine your talking about the George Floyd protests, and those are different. They did however seem to suggest that outdoor transmission wasn’t happening as there were never any major links found.
The kind of governmental abuse you are worried about can literally happen for any reason anytime. Health emergency restrictions weren’t new for Covid 19. I think you’re falling victim to online conspiracy theories and propaganda given the link I posted above.
The lockdowns and restrictions on gatherings lasted much longer than just March and April of 2020 in Democrat-led areas. States like Illinois, California, and New York had restrictions on gatherings through the end of 2020 and into 2021. I'm sure my own state would have had lockdowns lasting that long if the Republicans hadn't fought the Democrat governor. But of course, protests the Democrats were in favor of were always exempt from covid restrictions.
I'm not buying the argument that Democrats actually cared about covid. I honestly used to lean left until I saw how democrats abused their power during the pandemic. This will all happen again with the next virus. Mark my words.
Restrictions were still in place but not lockdowns. You can’t conflate the two. I don’t know when the restrictions were lifted in my state because I was still adhering to them until after I got vaccinated, and even then it was some time after that until I went back to normal. It’s clear you didn’t like lockdowns; I have no answer for you. Hospitals were at capacity and they had to bring in refrigerated trucks to store dead bodies. They did what they had to do to keep the healthcare system afloat. All the domestic violence, and depression, etc thst you talked about for those locked down applies to healthcare workers that were extremely overworked and in danger constantly. Lockdowns and later restrictions kept the numbers down for them too.
Republican Governor's just let people die.
Are you kidding me? You think Democrats abused their power during Covid? Who was President in 2020 during lockdowns again? Who attempted a coup when he lost?
If we need to lockdown again due to a new virus we know nothing about we should. End of story.
Yes.
grok
I've yet to see any evidence that there was some orchestrated agenda against Bernie. Sure, all the moderates probably did drop out so that moderate Biden could win against Bernie. What's wrong with that? Isn't that sort of implicitly how it works and should work? They made a choice that sacrified their own candidacy for the sake of advancing their policy goals (through Biden).
Nor have I seen any evidence that the DNC orchestrated some sting against Bernie in 2016 - the most that ever came out of that leaked trove of DNC emails were some DNC staff saying they wanted Hillary to win - not that they were going to take any action to make that happen.
I was a bit disappointed and wanted Bernie, but you're right that there wasn't really anything wrong with them doing that.
Not only that, but it showed that they aren't like the crabs in a bucket Republicans who failed to do the same because of their own egos and allowed Trump to ascend to the nomination through a series of plurality wins.
In my opinion, it shows they aren't dumb fascists and actually put the party and their country ahead of their own power and self-interest.
We can go even further and assume the democrats were all purely working in good faith, with the end goal of helping people. Even if that were the case, the idea that americans don't want progressive policy is still garbage and is completely trashed by polling. The polling alone disproves the commenter's completely contrafactual claim. It's demonstrably wrong on several levels.
regardless, the DNC could just overrule the results of the primaries if they wanted to and it'd be above board. It's completely legal. Biden could win 100% of the vote in every primary and they could put forward some random dude from Kentucky as their candidate and it would be "how it works". I disagree that that's how it should work.
Sad but harsh reality, it's not pretty but just how democracy functions under FPTP-voting with zero campaign finance subsidy available. If you can't pick up popularity in one of the two big parties you're shit out of options in the current system - designed by wealthy romans for the benefit of wealthy romans. If not allowed to evolve the great experiment is doomed at the whim of the super rich whenever enough lose their minds into fascism.
If it was trump v Bernie we would still have president trump right now. I’m in GA and there is basically not a single Bernie voter here. And as we all know ours and other swing states were key.
Except all polls showed the exact opposite. But keep dreaming I guess
I'd like to see the polls you found. I usually go to Five Thirty Eight for their polls, because they have a lot there. They do tend to go down as center left, and I'd like to see other polling agencies, especially those that focus on the socialist side of things
It was nearly unanimous amongst the polls. Nate Silver is an absolute moron lol. Not that him being an idiot directly means his polling is trash. This guy made one prediction correctly, got famous for it, and now think he's fucking nastrodamus, spewing the dumbest assed takes. he's the definition of the saying "scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds"
Biden also wins around the same against Trump according to RCP polling aggregation. Really nice site though I'll definitely look at it. Not sure why you think Nate Silver is a fascist though. He isn't a pundit, more so just a statistics nerd. If anything the Five thirty-eight team is against Trump, who is the fascist American's pick.
Okay. What's your point? Does it have anything to do with the discussion around the population of americans that want progressive policy?
When Bernie was a threat, Nate Silver and lots of liberals were saying shit like they'd vote for trump over bernie, or just simply not vote if bernie was the nominee. They'll side with fascists against if they think progressive will threaten their power
Yeah I forgot about the context. Bernie Sanders could definitely win against Trump
To those types, because liberals aren't doing enough in their eyes to oppose the fascists, the quote of sitting at a table with fascists applies, which means all liberals are fascists too
Then all communists and socialists are Fascist also. Mussolini was an ardent socialist before being a fascist, and indeed still considered himself a Socialist. Joseph Stalin signed the Molotov-Ribbontrop pact with Adolph Hitler, who was a thug for the Marxists before starting his National Socialist Workers Party. The Conservatives who value the appeal of Strength that Fascist thinkers call out with also fall prey to Fascism
Indeed the Liberal Government of the United States subverted governments to install Fascist governments in South America such as the government under Pinochet. You and I both have the potential to be Fascist. I do not think that Nate Silver is any more of a Fascist than you or me, simply because he doesn't shout from the street corners about the evils of Fascism.
I'm trying to follow your logic. How does other candidates dropping out on Super Tuesday screw Bernie? Those voters didn't vote for Bernie.
Are you trying to follow my logic, or have you already reached your conclusion? Looking at your comments on just this thread, it feels like it would be a waste of time to engage
I don’t understand what your implying. If the field remained messy Bernie could have won like Trump did in 2016? Right now it reads like you assume those votes that went against Bernie would have just became his or something. Idk.
I was really clear. But now it's really clear instead of following the thread, you're trying to shoehorn in your opinions, under the guise of "oh please help me understand". That's why I explained that it's a waste of time to engage.
I simply ask why everyone dropping out on Super Tuesday is a dirty trick. I can’t even tell you if I agree or disagree with your conclusion because I don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. You took the time to reply again without explaining yourself, so clearly it’s not about wasting time.
ok, see ya later
I look forward to more vague proclamations that you refuse to explain in any way despite clearly having the time to do so.
Cool, great chat!