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this post was submitted on 31 Aug 2023
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Look, I'm one of the first to say Americans are dangerously obsessed with firearms, but this wasn't a firearms issue - it was straight up murder. This wasn't an attempt to teach with any sort of responsibility or following any safety at all. If anyone tried to teach my kids firearm safety by sticking the barrel in their chest they would be decked.
First rule - every firearm is loaded. Every. Fucking. Firearm. Is. Loaded.
That is a firearms issue.
Untrained, irresponsible people are getting access to guns.
I fully agree irresponsible people are getting access, but this goes beyond firearms and training. There is irresponsible ownership and use, and then there is putting a firearm in the chest of a child, right after removing a loaded mag and pulling the trigger. Using my car analogy - there is irresponsible not wearing a seat belt, and then there is putting a kid on the roof and going off roading. First one - training, laziness, responsibility and access issue, second one is straight up murder.
You understand this is simply another example of "people who should never have access to guns because they're too immature/angry/stupid" which is all anybody is asking.
There are a lot of crazy rednecks out there who are not safe with guns, we need a way to stop them specifically from having them.
And this enraged the gun lobby because many of them know that sometimes, they're that moron.
I say this as an extremely responsible gun owner.
Without taking a stance myself - I doubt anyone disagrees with the principle, but rather on the implementation. How do we know who's responsible enough; can we write a law that accounts for:
• A 50-year-old woman who committed robbery in a moment of desperation as a 16-year-old and has since shown remorse, attended therapy, and held a stable job,
• A 40-year-old businessman who's never been convicted of anything, seemed okay when he saw a therapist once last year, but privately he gets into vicious screaming matches with his wife and has really inappropriate temper tantrums when he's drunk, and
• A 21-year-old college graduate who seems smart and stable enough, but their social media page is full of harsh criticisms of the government, projections of what would happen if various officials were theoretically assassinated, and more than a few references to "hoping for another civil war"?
While balancing that with the idea that the government isn't supposed to protect something as a "right" while also preemptively taking that right away from people they think might be dangerous, if they can't point to highly credible evidence. (Otherwise, it becomes possible to arrest people for 'thought crimes.')
Idk the solution personally. Seems impossible to balance unless gun access legally becomes a privilege to qualify for, rather than a right to be restricted from. But that would put the power into states' hands, and then states would have the power to decide that no one can have guns except the police.
While balancing that with the idea that the government isn't supposed to protect something as a "right" while also preemptively taking that right away from people they think *might* be dangerous, if they can't point to highly credible evidence. (Otherwise, it becomes possible to arrest people for 'thought crimes.')Amendments mean that it's possible to amend the Constitution.
Solution: Amend the Constitution and don't make it a right to own weapons
Ta-fucking-da!
'No Way to Prevent This', Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens'
Solutions already exists in all other countries in the world. It is an incredibly myopic attitude to think you have to somehow invent a completely new concept in order to have gun regulations in your country.
Tl;dr - "we can't solve everything, and the partial solutions inconvenience me so we must do nothing"
You just like guns, you can admit it, it's not a crime, I think they're cool too.
But a good portion of gun owners absolutely should not have them.
You're so terrified someone will report you for something and you'll lose your guns, maybe thats a sign you need to look at.
You are reading too much into their comment. It's OK to ask how you would implement it.
I've never owned a gun and still agree with them. There are certainly people who shouldn't have guns but the vast majority haven't yet had an incident to get them taken away by any hypothetical law.
You can't prevent every gun death. It's certainly worth preventing the ones we can, but this particular story has no indications that these ladies had previously given cause for taking them away. They were at least seen by the state as responsible enough to foster children.
So to come to this particular story to advocate taking guns away from folks under circumstances that wouldn't have changed the outcome feels more like grandstanding than conversation.
Unfortunately, no matter how responsible you may be the rules apply to all. The only way to make meaningful changes is for the responsible gun owners to limit their own access via licences, vetting, restrictions and quality registration systems and to push government to apply it to everyone. It is a culture problem, and needs those on the right side of the rules to bring everyone's standards up.
You completely misunderstand me.
We need many more restrictions, many, many more, there are far too many insane idiots out there with guns.
I think I do understand - just elaborating in how to implement it.
Then we agree, the problem is so many pro-gun types have a sociopathic mindset and try to work from there: society is potentially their enemy, so I need to be armed for when it decides to come for me.
(TW)
Yeah typically I'm not on board with the "guns don't kill people" argument but in this particular case, the adult in charge was already (allegedly, potentially) criminally abusive. If not a gun, it would have been 'teaching her to chop vegetables with a knife,' or 'teaching her to hold her breath underwater,' or so on.
As stated in my top comment - I fully agree America is dangerously obsessed with firearms, and first look at the article was "same old story". But Jesus, the straight up actions they took means this isn't a firearm problem. If you want to get change, attack the negligence, manufacturers and law makers for the actions they take - but this wasn't on them.
I understand what you're saying but this person obviously has a history of abuse. You escalate up to shooting a kid, you don't start there. In the same morning she'd shoe-slapped the kids (4 and 7) for not waking her (!?!) and eating food! Not having laws (or not enforcing them) prohibiting abusive people from owning firearms is a firearms issue. Obviously the "teaching" excuse is bullshit, it was murder, but not having a gun in the house could have at least forced her to use a less-certain method.
I fully agree with history of abuse and escalated considerably. It doesn't mean its a firearm issue as the escalation would have happened with whatever is on hand.
I discussed the second part (access and less certain method) with another commenter - this is a full on America culture obsession and issue. The only way to make any change is for those who are responsible to push for restrictions, licenses, and honesty some common sense around America laws - and then force the law makers to enact it. Firearm ownership should never be a right - its a responsibility and a privilege. Damn, you have two hands, why do you need dozens of firearms?
?? We don't disagree on this.
Sorry, bad tone. I'm agreeing with you, just adding we should attack the right event.
I think the point they are trying to make is that in this situation, the perpetrator would have said she tripped and stabbed her with a knife if she didn't have access to a gun. It's not a gun issue, this person just genuinely wanted to murder a child that got on her nerves.
You have no way of knowing that. We do however know that she did murder the child with a gun she should never have had access to.
That's not what this was. This wasn't a lack of training, this wasn't irresponsible behavior, this goes way beyond neglect or ignorance. This was murder, full on. Not an accident.
It's both.
Nah, neglect is simply not giving a shit. Pressing a gun barrel into a 4 year old and pulling the trigger while you called another kid over to watch isn't anything other than premeditated murder.
It's a firearms issue as well.
It's an intent issue far more than it is a firearms issue. It wouldn't have been any harder to use a knife in this scenario. Any advantage offered by a firearm is completely offset by the circumstances surrounding it, and offers disadvantages and complications that the knife does not.
All the training in the world wouldn't have stopped this. They wanted that kid dead.
Yes but removing access to guns would have certainly gone a long way.
Not a firearm issue? Wtf killed her?
No wonder we'll never solve this issue. Idiots
This is like saying its a car issue because I tried to teach a 4 year old road safety by speeding at them and slamming on the brakes. Its not the car thats the issue.
Cars are not weapons. They are dangerous, but they haven't been invented to kill. You also need to do an exam before you're allowed to drive a car.
Oh, im still surprised you don't need a course and license like every other country in the world.
Firearms are tools and serve a purpose, and must be treated the same as every other tool... you know, like years to get a drivers license?
And fir the record - vehicles have absolutely been used as weapons as everything from vehicular assault to IEDs.
You missed the point. 2 actually
1 you need a license and pass an exam to get to drive a car
2 guns have only one use,kill things. Cars main point is not to kill things.
That… is a car issue in the rest of the world, considering some idiot who thinks it’s okay to do that has access to, and probably the privilege of operating such a machine.
Yeah... that would be a lifetime driving ban, alongside any other ramifications.
Given the psychological effect of owning a gun, or having access to one has on a person, I honestly feel like we're in the same mental health territory as any behavioral antagonist, like leaving an addictive substance around an addict. You take a gun and put everything it means in a person's hands - the power, the mythology, the kind of baggage it comes with in this country - and it's gonna have some kind of effect.
I don't know about you, but I've witnessed, and am aware of many cases where drivers of certain kinds of cars - big, fast, whatever - do stupid, reckless, dangerous, even murderous things because of the feeling of power and control their vehicle gives them. It's the psychology of the damn things that makes people crazy.
We have a phrase for it, oddly enough: "it's like leaving a loaded gun on the table"
Exactly. It was murder and its pissing me off the news is making it about firearm safety gone wrong. And the poor kids sound like they were abused in this foster care setting.. This girl was shot point blank in the chest. Hope there is some justice.This poor child.
I agree with your points, but I also think that if firearms were more regulated, this woman may not have even gotten a gun in the first place. We don't know her history, but if she did something like this, I wouldn't be shocked if she didn't have the cleanest of records.
In a civilised country this person would not have had access to a firearm, so it is most definitely a gun issue.
Second rule, don't point that shit at anything you don't want to destroy.