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this post was submitted on 17 Aug 2023
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Lol, literally the only game where physical size, bone density, lung capacity and muscle strength does not matter is keeping men and women separate! Haha... In chess there should be no separate category for women, unless.... Unless.... Unless we believe that women are less smarter than men.
Chess got an open class and a female class. The latter is there to provide a safer environment for girls and hopefully encourage more to try out the sport.
The vast majority of times when men's and women's sports are separated it isn't for the benefit of the men. It is because it would be a blow-out if the two sexes were together.
Football? American Football has no restrictions on gender, it's just that no woman can compete after puberty truly sets in. What that guys says is true about physical sports. Women can't compete and never could. I can't think of a single sport where a woman could outcompete a man in a physical sense. Even something like gymnastics, I think men still overcome the natural female advantage that comes from being small.
Chess from what I recall created a woman's division because of the systematic biases and pressures girls faced. However, if I'm recalling correctly, it's not particularly weird for a woman to complete in the open division. It's just not a welcoming place for woman, so beginners often start in the women's division. With that in mind I don't see why transpeople shouldn't be allowed. They wouldn't be welcome much either in the open division, but also I'm not sure they'd be welcome in the women's division either, so it's kind of a wash.
I've got news for you...
True, but we play chess differently than a computer. We play chess mostly by pattern recognition or planning. Computers typically play chess by brute forcing all options to find the one with the most highly successful results. The later is good with a lot of very stable memory, which humans don't have.
Women traditionally have been discouraged from competitions, including chess. Men have a generational head start. We are at the stage where, in order to be equitable and fair, we should be creating extra opportunities for women. If we didn't, tradition and systemic practices would continue to discourage women.
Chess has no male category. There's open, and female. This allows an extra space for women to compete against each other, feel safe, and make connections and friendships with other women in the minority. While still allowing them to compete in the coed category on a level playing field.
We will most likely continue to be at this stage for generations.
Sorry to be contrarian here, but at the high competitive level chess is a cardiovascular challenge. If you listen to serious chess players talk about playing it's not just a simple mental exercise.
High performing chess players have a higher HRV. Chess grandmasters might be sitting still but their body is undergoing a high degree of stress. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2019-14359-001
Men statistically have higher HRV on average, and the outliers are even more extreme. https://www.whoop.com/ca/en/thelocker/normal-hrv-range-age-gender/
So when you enter into a competitive environment it's just nicer to know you have a MORE level playing field.
I know chess specifically is controversial with regards to gender stuff and I'm not saying it's perfect. I'm just saying that there are real reasons to support separate brackets.
Hold up. I'm not super experienced in reading studies, but I can read.
At best this is correlation. HRV increasing for these men doesn't mean a high HRV is required to be good at chess.
Sample size of 16... And only male.
If reduced HRV means lower cognitive performance and women have, on average, lower HRV, you're saying women are less smart. At least in chess. I think that's bullshit and this study isn't incorporating enough/the correct data to show anything you're stating.
But here is one: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0149763411002077 that links HRV with stress response
And another: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0149763419310292 That shows women's HRV responds less severely to stress.
Both meta-analysis, not a single data point.
So maybe men are just shit at dealing with stress and that's why their brains go haywire during competition. But it's so gracious of you being so kind to women and giving them a space where they can play among equals on a "MORE level playing field."
By your logic, they should just be testing people's HRV and ranking them that way so they all are on even ground. Give those dummy men a MORE level playing field.
Heh, TIL chess is cardio.
But as a person whos heart rate also increases while playing competitive board games, I can say the heart rate increase is usually due to adrenalin because I was blindsighted and I am in danger of not getting my 'easy win' or a toddler like rage at my predictions going wrong. YMMV.
Remember the chess player accused of cheating via anal dildo?
Also remember Petrosian? He spawned a whole bot over on AnarchyChess.
Pretty sure those two's heart rates had nothing to do with increased bloodflow to the brain to make calculated decisions.
Having my ass handed to me in chess (amateur level) by women a couple of times makes me think that maybe the segregation is to protect men, rather than women. Or I might just be a bad chess player.
Why, if Petrosian had gone berserk on women instead of men, he probably would have had a huge reputation hit. With a bot quoting him for all internet eternity or some stuff like that. Oh, wait.
Well... this is certainly enough bullshit to make the crops grow
Wow. Looks like people can't handle facts huh.
Pretty typical for here to see a post with actual sources and instead of people doing their own research they instead want to downvote and dog-pile. You can be upset with the outcome but there are reasons behind it (and it's not just them jumping on the trans bashing bandwagon, they outlined exactly why it was done and how it works for male-female transitions and vice versa)
It's not an "actual source", it's a shit source. N=16, really? Barely qualifies as a study.
Providing a source doesn't make a statement unchallengeable, especially if the source is deeply flawed.
You could just say "I'm a fucking moron" and save yourself some time
Why are men like this?
This dude channeling his inner Radovid
https://youtu.be/bmnC-yaOHkM
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This just in: throughout all of history women were never involved in politics; somehow relates to them being bad at chesd
Women often ruled capably (Nefertiti, Boudica, Catherine, Elizabeth,, etc) were politically involved throughout history ,and were likely some decision-makers in early societies, as temporary habits were likely determined by foragability.
They are not bad at chess. There are biased circumstances both social and epistemological that have prevented their involvement with the evolution of Chess. I think these chess people are more afraid of someone insulting Chess and in the process insulted a lot of people.
Yeah dude this was sarcasm, ain't there a whole era named after a female ruler?
If you want my personal chess opinion they statistically do worse cause chess is nothing but a game of emotions now, and the old masters made sure they had less competition by making women an easy target. Idk why the whole tourney isnt done online if they want an actual representation of chess skill, not just the bachlorette type drama we got going on
I agree. I just think it's detrimental to just shout that something is wrong as though it's common sense without analysis or reasoning.
No, I'm saying chess has been biased from the start and the games greatest players have been neurodivergent for a long time. Gender injustice is happening here, but it also has complex layers worth investigating, too. Like, how much of Chess' DNA and evolution has been balanced based almost exclusively to satisfy traditionally male interests (domination, competition). How did the pieces and board change to fit the boys' game.
Is it helpful the WNBA ball is smaller? I'd say yes, but not just in the obvious ways, but also in service of the meta game and to put the best product forward. There are extenuating circumstances. I was trying to say: the exclusion is so deeply entrenched in the historical male worldview that it might just need to have these debates and growing pains to become what it should be: fair and fun.