631
Lemmy since the reddit collapse
(lemmy.ml)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2023
631 points (80.4% liked)
Memes
45565 readers
644 users here now
Rules:
- Be civil and nice.
- Try not to excessively repost, as a rule of thumb, wait at least 2 months to do it if you have to.
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
Yeah, you can call yourself a leftist all you want, but when 90% of your posts is calling Biden and Zelensky Nazis but you never criticize Putin or Trump, I get certain doubts.
Posting about Trump or Putin being bad would be akin to making posts about ISIS being bad: it goes without saying.
Like 99% of people on this platform already agrees with you, it's really not a contentious issue. There's no significant MAGA or Russian nationalist instance federated. None of their supporters would see it, it would be a completely moot point.
Oh how I wish that was true. Unfortunately I've seen far too many people support Russia in this war, both offline and online, including here.
Maybe I'm wrong about hexbear, I certainly hope that I am, but on lemmygrad I saw long posts with many upvotes explaining how this war is a good thing and Putin is a hero that is fighting against the capitalists etc.
Edit: and now lemmygrad had Hunter's laptop on the front page. Could they be any more obvious?
Edit2: lol, you almost had me believing that I was wrong and just too paranoid. Then in this very thread I got two people from hexbear telling me how NATO and Ukraine are evil, heavily upvoted. Still nothing bad about either Trump or Putin. Thanks.
Right, but if you made a post about how Putin is a great leader or Republicans have better policies and child labour, homophobia and lower taxes on the rich are good on Hexbear you're going to get shat on in the comments if not outright banned.
Criticizing NATO is more pressing because online discourse is extremely pro-NATO. Reddit, for example, loves NATO expansion and loved when Finland joined. None of the disdain for NATO is praise for Putin being a corrupt nationalist.
Also anything involving Hunter Biden is funny. He's just an obscenely offbeat person. While the Trump children (except Tiffany and for now Barron) are just slimy sycophants trying to gain daddy's approval while swindling money out of MAGA morons, Hunter is doing cocaine and sleeping with prostitutes. Its never really in our discourse for anti-Biden posts to criticize Hunter, he's become a micro celebrity in his own right. If anything we literally like Hunter better than Joe
Its because we don't have to convince y'all that Trump and Putin are bad because you already think that. We'd just be spitting into an echo chamber, preaching to the choir. There's no point. To be clear we dunk on Trump all the time. We do not like him.
Why do you think that leftists have to say "but also btw Trump is also bad" every time we criticize Biden? That would make no sense.
We had a user who would uncritically support Russia and Operation Z. A "Z poster", if you will. They were banned on several accounts and no one really missed them.
Some of us tepidly support the CPRF, which is largely controlled opposition. We recognize that counting since 2014, there's a lot of propaganda, civilian strikes, and land mines coming from both sides. Most of us favor an immediate armistice along the present LOC that follows pretty closely a "dividing line" for the plurality ethnicity as evidenced by the past 30 years of linguistic, electoral, and poling data. And we favor quick peace as opposed to continued hostility that likely will go nowhere.
It sucks that Ukraine's self-determination is being jeopardized by Russia. It sucks that Luhansk's self-determination is being jeopardized by Ukraine. It sucks that there's a geopolitical standoff between the two strongest military powers that overlays this. It sucks that the only imaginable ruling party in Russia is a reactionary capitalist one that was ushered in by Clinton's intervention. And it sucks that they're all probably just going to die in a field to resolve it, and make the situation in Bosnia look like a vacation resort in comparison.
There is a silver lining in that we are seeing a great power struggle to subjugate its neighbor, and also in that the wearing down of NATO and Russia allows the less belligerent, more progressive, emerging superpower to have more sway in the world. Some might say that makes it "worth it" but I certainly don't.
This is uncritically supporting the Z operation. It rewards the attacker and gives them absolutely no reason to not try again in 10 years (either in the same country or in another one). It's also what happened in 2014 and you see the results of that now.
Would you favor an immediate armistice with the Nazis in 1943? I surely hope not, but that would be a quick peace, very much like what the advocate for now.
I'm not sure you know the meaning of the word uncritical but go off.
Also, just so we're on the same page, what do you believe happened in 2014 and what has happened since then until Feb 2022? What political and demographic conditions do you believe set the stage for the conflict that has been going on since then?
Your comparison to WW2 in 1943 is also wildly off. For one, you've got it mixed up which side is wearing the Nazi insignia and celebrating Nazi collaborators and enthusiastic participants in the Holocaust. For another, the USSR turned the war around in 1943. It would make no sense to call for armistice when you're winning. Ukraine is currently stalled and bleeding manpower and materiel. The counteroffensive is all but done, were it not for Western insistence that fighting continues to the last Ukrainian.
I don't know, which side are Wagner and Rogozin on?
USSR was just as stalled in early 1943, bleeding manpower and materiel, getting massive war supplies from the USA, and the West was insisting that fighting continues to the last Russian. Sounds familiar?
Okay but can you actually name institutional promotion of nazism? For example publishing celebrations of Bandera, putting the OUN trident on old soviet monuments, funding neonazi run youth camps, etc?
I'm guessing you can't because while there are certainly Nazi Russians they've also tried to suppress any sort of Nazi organizing within Russia. The state is hostile to organized Nazism unlike Ukraine.
To be clear, theyre still a right wing neoliberal hellscape, but it is a low bar to clear and one clears it.
Nazis fighting Nazis
Hunter Biden's laptop is big news though. Why would it not be on the front page?
It's not though? We got tired of riffing on that literally years ago.
While it should go as without saying I think it's pretty hard to take it that way when the following statements get made a) The legitimate Ukraine government was overthrown in a NATO croup, b) Ukraine government is a neo-nazi government, c) DPR and LPR are legitimate countries and d) NATO started the war in Ukraine. Every single one of those is a Russian state propagated talking point, all of them made around nuggets of facts (like the leaked chat where some US officials were discussing who should or shouldn't be in the new government) but ultimately warped into something that can't definitely be proven true or false. Thus whoever spreads those talking points wants to believe those statements as true, which begs the question of why to believe they're true.
I don't think I could ever make you believe that we came to these conclusions based on an analysis of world history, economics, and the current geopolitical reality and didn't need any help from Yuri at the FSB.
You literally don't understand how we analyze geopolitics.
So, theyre all Russian talking points but theyre also all supported by evidence?
This is a thing that annoys me about liberal conceptions of bias. Everything is biased, the question is how factual things are.
Yes, this is what we call discussing who should be in the puppet government. You'll note that they kept the moderate "we should be nuetral between the US and Russia" organizers out and brought the nazis in.
You forgot the genocide denial as well. I don't understand why they worship Russia like the ussr is still around.
Anarchists didn't like the fucking USSR either.
Right? They react with appropriate frustration when someone denies the Holocaust happened, but then deny Holodomor with the exact same rhetoric as the Holocaust deniers.
Oop im feeling it, gotta worship Russia now.
. Wanna hit?
Who are these "leftists"that criticize Biden but not Trump
are the pro-Trump leftists in the room with us right now?
https://lemmygrad.ml/
Pretty sure lemmygrad is not pro trump
That's what I thought too, but somehow there is a "600 page report on the contents of Hunter Biden's laptop" on their front page.
Like I said, they call themselves leftists, but everything there is only anti-Biden, anti-NATO and anti-Ukraine. Nothing about republicans pushing for child labor, for example, which should be the most important priority for a pro-workers group.
There are articles about this regularly on Hexbear and, I must assume, on Lemmygrad as well.
People like the Hunter story because it's funny and there is genuine corruption going on, but I don't think any of them think it's actually important.
Posts about the ongoing child labour in the US appear on hexbear and lemmygrad frequently...
Trump isn't president, It's not weird for leftists to criticise those in power more often, nor an offensive organisation responsible from bombing innocent working people or a banderite state for that matter
Liberals arguing in bad faith and ignorance? Couldn't happen.
Weird that you mention this. I assume you mean NATO, because there is another organization responsible for bombing innocent working people right now, as well as taking the working people of their own country and sending them to die. Why is criticism reserved only for the one that did not start the current war?
Can you show in what way is Ukraine more right-wing than Russia?
I hate the Russian government for being cynical liberal mafiosos who use reactionary rhetoric similar to if Republicans were transposed there ("our enemies are exporting homosexuality to us to weaken us" etc). That is still substantially different from making your #1 national hero a Holocaust perpetrator, which Ukraine has done.
Probably because none of us live in Russia, so criticizing them is a waste of time. Of course they suck, but there's nothing we can do about it. Nobody in Russia is ever going to read our criticism.
We do, however, mostly live in NATO-aligned countries. We CAN affect change in our own countries. That is a productive conversation to have.
Nobody is claiming that. You're having an argument with a guy you made up.
Idk about Lemmygrad, I can't speak for them (I also couldnt find this post when I went to check, and I doubt its slipped off the first two pages in the five hours since you posted this?)
But on Hexbear we think the Hunter Biden story is funny and dont take it seriously. We post about it to mock it.
Supporting Trump is when you show interest in (admittedly boring and inconsequential) ongoing news issues.
Biden is a right wing monster who literally wrote the 1994 Crime Bill that has caused over a generation of misery, horror, and suffering. Not going to get in to the other ones because we literally have several pinned posts on the matter and I'm sick of re-iterating them to ideological brick walls.
Literally posted 3 articles yesterday criticising trump but go off.