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(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2024
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One is defending international civilian shipping, not Israel. The other is shooting down drones which is not the problem ya'll are talking about right?
It's not even to the point. A Trump (the guy who had a private personal meeting behind the closed doors of his owned home with Netanyahu, and came out wiping his chin) presidency would see all of your gripes and far more committed to Israel. You are cutting off your nose to spite your face bitching about the lesser of 2 evils.
Read the second link too.
Read my comment. I did.
You mean defending the Nazis against retaliation while they are committing Genocide, using American with boots on the ground, is not complicity?
Aside from the guy in the F35 pressing the red fire button everything about the Genocide is American.
Actually scratch that there's a probably some American colonists flying those bombers as well.
I'll repeat this in the hopes it snaps you out of you rabid hate-rant:
All that is only valid if you assume that there is a lesser evil between the two. That's your problem, you're left all confused at our stubborn refusal of voting for the democrats because you assume that we agree with you that the Democrats are less evil than the republicans. we don't (those I know at least don't).
I'm telling you that honestly, I haven't seen any evidence that the Democrats would be any less bad, nor any evidence that they have been any less bad until now, on the contrary. I haven't seen any of the peoples who keep telling us to vote blue give any evidence than the Democrats are less bad, you just take it as an axiom that they are, never try to actually demonstrate it and build your entire argument on this very much unfounded basis.
Your claim here that the Republican could do worst implicitly assume that the Democrats are holding back and not giving as much to Israel as they could, except 1) the Democrats are way too rabidly Zionist and full of AIPAC money for that to be true and 2) the US, right now under a democrat president, is already sending Israel everything they can afford to send without risking to escalate into a war with Iran and Lebanon against whom they know them and Israel would lose (they did war-games to simulate a war against Iran, they lost badly. Sources: How the U.S. Military Lost a War to Iran (In a Simulation, That Is) - Mackenzie institute A $250 Million War Game and Its Shocking Outcome - The National Interest Millennium Challenge 2002 - wikipedia)
"This is how the Republican Party became so strongly pro-Israel"
All this article is saying is that the Republicans openly boast about the evil things they do and their voters are openly pro-Israel, both of which I already know, and neither of which contradict what I said.
Yes, the Democrats don't give speeches in which they shamelessly talk about what they'll do to all the peoples they hate the way the Republicans do, and pretend to care about minorities instead. But that doesn't matter what they say, it's too easy to say shit you don't mean, what matter is what they do, and what the Democrats are doing is, as I've said, sending every weapons they can afford to Israel so that they can continue to slaughter Palestinians.
Meanwhile... back in reality
I see where you're coming from, but once again, this is mostly the Democrat parties saying stuff and not doing anything meaningful.
This article is talking about the Republican wanting to pass a bill forbidding withholding weapons from Israel over Biden saying (as in, not doing) that he might withhold weapons shipments.
Digging a little in the links off your article, the only instance of Biden actually doing something is this. Which to be fair, sound convincing at a glance.
But let's examine closer: First of all, as is clearly written, the shipment is merely paused meaning they will still deliver it eventually. So already I can tell they don't actually intend to hold back on the weapons and are just trying to calm the peoples angry at them for what they're doing. If they're elected again, as soon as they get to office they will resume giving every single bit of armament they can afford to Israel.
Now let's talk even more concrete, how much does this pause in the weapon shipments really affect the genocide. As anyone who was following the events since October 7 can tell, the genocide continued completely unbothered, and of course it did:
This is the article's description of the paused shipment, 1,800 + 1,700 = 3,500 bombs in total.
Israel has dropped 45,000 bombs on Gaza since October 7 alone (so not counting the ones dropped before), This report dates back from Mars so the actual current number is probably much much higher. Sources: Bombings in populated areas: a new extreme reached in Gaza
3,500/45,000 = 0.07 = 7%
This shipment represent a mere 7% of the bombs dropped on Gaza, for the record the bombs the Israelis uses have a failure rate of 9% ~ 14%. In other words, this paused shipment bothered the ongoing genocide less that the small chance the bombs they do have might malfunction and fail to explode.
I should also mention the fact that they paused the shipment of just 2 types of bombs out off all the weapons the US delivers to Israel, that's essentially nothing. Source: Which US-made weaponry does Israel, which stands .... It's all just lip service, good optics so that their convinced voters (you) can come at us all smug and go "see? they're not that bad", but when you look closely, there is nothing, it's just a show to make themselves look good, there is nothing actually meaningful going on.
And beside, let's be honest, the reason they even did this inconsequential stunt of pausing this shipment is above all because the Democrat's handlers knew that if Israel want into Rafah, they would just get their asses handed to them by Hamas and put the whole country in an even worst situation that they already were, which is exactly what happened. Source: Hamas Prepare Traps for IDF in MAJOR Counteroffensive.
Here is just a taste of the people you are naively putting your hopes in. I already said the Dems are the lesser evil. Beating your chest and pointing it out isn't moving the argument forward. The evidence is overwhelmingly clear the Reps are not simply just unsympathetic but hostile to anti-zionists.
You are holding a shitty hand and everyone knows it. Threatening to go all in on the Reps is going to get called every time. All you can do now is fold, hope your chips go to the almost sympathetic Dems, and start playing the next hand dealt.
I'm not putting my hopes in the republicans, that's a strawman and I'm sure you know that.
You still didn't give any evidence that they are. You just assert that they are and retreat to pretending like I'm supporting the Republicans when I didn't buy the Democrat's "good optics" as proof that they are less evil.
So are the Democrats, have you not seen what kind of things they say about the anti-genocide protests? Have you not seen Kamala's statement about the protests when Netanyahu was visiting? Or all the violent police crackdown that happened under the Democrat's watch since October 7?
You know what else will get called out? You blatantly lying about what I said because you ran out of counterarguments. I don't support the Republicans, they're horrible too. It's your unproven assumption that the Democrats are better that I'm criticizing here.
the almost sympathetic Dems
Ha, yes. The genociders who are almost sympathetic to the peoples they're genociding. Again, no evidence, just faith. "The Democrats are the lesser evil, no I won't prove it, you must accept it in your soul that they are the good guys, reject the evidence of your eyes and your ears telling you that they keep doing the things they used to criticize Trump for less than 5 years ago, just believe in the holy blue party!!!!"
The more time passes the more Blue MAGA becomes a fitting title for the convinced Democrats crowd.
Saying something doesn't make it true. I've done nothing but provide evidence the Republicans are worse, in their own words, if you'd read it. I notice you didn't address that at all. The very fact you say 'no, the Dems are worse' proves you support republicans because at this point it is one or the other. There is no plausible 3rd choice. That is the crux of American politics you fail to grasp and try to conceal by calling me a liar.
Throwing a tantrum because the Dems are technically the ones in power and so you place all the blame on them is weak tea. It's not even close. The House vote Republicans initiated to force the Dems to stop delaying the release of weapon shipments had 16 Dems vote for it, versus 208 Reps. Press releases by Republican Senators calling the Dems "weak Palestinians" in a blatantly racist attempt to belittle their hesitation. What the Fuck more do you need? Them to get into power and start invading Palestine with American troops? Get a clue, come on.
No, you didn't. Once again you're focusing on what the parties and their voters are saying and ignoring what they are doing.
I've already addressed why the article you linked don't prove that the Democrats are less bad 👈 This is what I've requested evidence for, in case you forgot. I don't need you to tell me the Republicans are bad, I already know that.
An other strawman. When did I say that the Dems were worst? I said they were both bad. That's my whole point since the beginning: that there isn't any lesser evil between the two. They are both equally bad, only the optics, the presentation, the aesthetic is different.
It does put the blame on them though. As president, Biden is the chief of the entire US military, he could literally send one e-mail and end all shipment to Israel immediately, he has that power right now he just chose not to use it.
And that's just what the president alone has the power to do. Let alone the entire Democrat party with all the senators and governors that have.
That's meaningless lip-service once again.
If the bill don't pass, they'll maybe do one or two more bullshit pause in the shipments and boast that they're so fucking great and progressive for it even though it doesn't even bother the ongoing genocide in any meaningful capacity for the reasons I explained.
If the bill do pass, they'll get a free excuse to continue to unconditionally support Israel while getting to pose as great progressives for the even cheaper price of simply crying crocodile tears on TV and social medias about the bill, while not actually doing anything against said bill.
In both cases they get their voters (you) to berate everyone about the Democrats just because they didn't vote for a Republican bill they at best feel neutral toward.
Yes, the Republican don't care if you see them for what they are while the Democrats are scrambling to convince their voter base that their evil actions somehow don't makes them the 'bad guys'. Again, nothing new, and nothing that contradict my position.
If you have two racist KKK members uncles coming to Christmas eve, would you say that the one who at least shut up during dinner is better than the one who vomit racism on the table, or that it doesn't matter because at the end of the day they are still both KKK members and you should kick out both? I say the second option.
They won't do that. The American military know they would lose an open war in the region and that if they lose it would be the end of Israel. I know that Trump is a dumb fuck, but he's not alone, there are corporations, handlers and generals behind him who won't let Trump wreck Israel by his stupidity.
The only way the US would send the army is if Iran, Hezbollah and Yemen attack Israel first, in which case the Democrats would sent the army too.
Your argument sits on what ifs with no basis in reality.
Okay you are clearly refusing to face facts. Whatever the Dems do, the Reps say 'they should have done more'. You are fixated on the Dems being the ones signing solely because they are in power when the Reps ENTIRE FUCKING PLATFORM is that Israel needs more support. You aren't arguing in good faith and just repeating the same tired 'Dems did bad stuff tho' instead of acknowledging that the Reps would absolutely do worse, in their own words, supported by their own actions, happily. This unwillingness to get beyond past wrongs to see how you're own myopic actions only make things worse is a running theme with the Anti-Zionists so I guess in a way this is my fault for trying to educate the unwilling.
Don't listen. Keep sawing away at that nose. You aren't worth arguing with at this point unless you agree the Reps outright say they want to do more for Israel than the Dems have and admit the only reason they haven't is solely because they aren't in power. We'll just have to wait for the Rep leopards to be voted in and start eating your faces. At which point the metaphorical screams of pain will be little consolation.
None of the facts you presented show that the Republicans would do worse.
Of course they're saying the Dems aren't supporting Israel enough, the Reps' whole electoral strategy is to whine about the Democrats and blame them for everything they think is wrong. Just because they say the Democrats support Israel less than them doesn't make it true.
Again, the Democrat's actions show clearly that they are unconditionally supporting the genocide with every resource they have.
I am though.
I go through every argument you made point by point, and explain point by point in detail why they don't convince me, the problems I have with them, my perspective, so that you can come with better more convincing arguments.
That's arguing in good faith.
But instead crafting better arguments to counter the points I raised you just keep repeating over and over that the Dems are better without ever demonstrating it. So far you've given just 2 sources, of which only the second was relevant to my main point, and no actual argument of your own as far as the subject matter is concerned.
I dare suppose that this is because you don't actually have any answers to the many points I raised, or if you do you're certainly not showing it.
'Course they say they would do worst. Complaining about the Dems posturing as progressive is their all thing. Doesn't make it true. See first point.
This is not just past wrongs, this is above all current wrongs, the genocide is going on right now, and the Democrats are supporting it right now.
Again, this point is only valid if you believe that the Democrats are less bad than the Republicans, which I don't believe and which is what I've asked you to provide evidence of, which you didn't do.
Also, your smug attitude since the beginning certainly isn't isn't a sign of good faith on your part.
I've listened, I've read the things you linked and responded to the points you tried to make with them.
To me, it's you who don't seem worth arguing with or willing to hear a different perspective.
I doubt you even opened any of the many links I gave, or again, if you did, you sure aren't showing you did.
I mean, look at this line:
That's the whole thing we are arguing about tough. You're basically saying that I'm not worth arguing with if I don't already agree with you on the thing we're arguing about. If that isn't bad faith, I don't know what is.
And again with that smug attitude, as well as wishing harm on me for not wanting to support your favorite genocider club to top it all, how very blue MAGA of you.
Weather or not you respond, I'm done here.
This, this right here. When someone tells you who they are... believe them.
Like, in what world can you say "just because they say they will be worse, have a huge religio-fascist base they are catering too, and have demonstrated with their declared policies and voting behaviour that they would... doesn't mean they will ahktuallllly be worse". Like, WTF are you even arguing here at this point?
That wasn't what I was saying. I was saying you aren't worth arguing with because you wouldn't even admit they said they would be worse. Now that you have (see previous point), the ridiculousness of your stance is obvious.
Now who's lying hmm?
We agree. You are done like dinner here.
dems are gonna lose and it's gonna be absolutely hilarious
Joe Biden is already out mate. Your argument is completely invalid.
Enough pressure on the Democrats and the Genocide stops.
Still speaking nonsense. Well, I tried.
Enough voting pressure in the polls will make Democrats change their policy and force a ceasefire.
Supporting Democrats despite the Genocide will only boost the chance Democrats lose because they dont change policy.
Joe Biden dropping out is all the evidence you need that they won't continue with a policy or candidate that will make them lose.
Biden dropping out is all the proof you need that he doesn't care at all anymore about voting pressure.