slickgoat

I like your nuanced position, but I completely disagree with it, and have already articulated as to why.

I don't believe that you are a stereotypical American, but the whole "freedom thing" is a stereotypical American thing. I'm Australian and I believe that I have many more freedoms than most Americans. For instance, your country puts traval restrictions on you that we would never tolerate. I can travel to Cuba, or just about any country in the world freely. Same as most other Western countries. But we don't claim to have special freedom privileges. On the other hand, Australia has one of the most restrictive gun ownership laws in the world. Lots of red tape and lots of regulation. However, by and large nobody minds because the trade-off is a mostly one of safety. The US has a gun homicide rate of about 50 times more than Australia, per capita. The US has 17 times Australia's gun deaths over all. So, trading off some freedoms has a community benefit and we believe it is worth it. No Australian government has ever won office with a policy of undoing gun laws. Some freedoms are just not worth it. As to your seatbelt example, you deciding not to wear one might impact upon people other than yourself. Someone has to endure the trauma of scraping your body off the road. Someone has to cart your broken arse off to hospital. Someone might have to care for you for years. Possibly forever. Your freedom to not wear a seatbelt will probably impact on others freedom not to have to deal with your silly decision. And so it goes. As I said, the only country in the world who constantly bangs on about freedom, forbids what can be read in so many schools, the right of women to control their bodies, how a president who fails to garner a majority of the popular votes can still get 'elected', and so many more anti-freedoms. Your country also imposes it's will on so many other countries. That's freedom US style.

To me the Libertarian position is fundamentally selfish. It pretends to be one of freedom, but if you live in a society one must tolerate restrictions, large and small. Or, go live a hermit existence somewhere so whatever folly you choose to celebrate has zero impact upon your fellow citizens.

That's just my opinion, of course, you are free to disagree.

I dunno man. You may be some flavour of libertarian, but not me. I am aware of the libertarian philosophy, and it is particularly an American following.

Freedom has many meanings to many people. But a free society also imposes restrictions on people's freedom. You just can't kill someone who annoys you. You need a proper licence in order to drive on public thoroughfares. You can't take something that doesn't belong to you, just because you want it. Living in a free society also imposes obligations. Other people must be taken into consideration.

In the case of vapes, and other poisons, it's not good enough to just yell freedom and allow corporations to to sell dangerous products. Kids consume these products and their health can be affected. In a free society public health considerations will probably impact on people's freedom. After all, seatbelts continue to save thousands and thousands of lives despite some folks feeling salty about wearing them. At least they are breathing and feeling salty.

None of this will convince you, and that's ok. I don't have skin in your game anyway because I don't live in your country and therefore accept normal restrictions. If I want to live in a society and change the rules, I'll vote for a person who will do that. Gerrymandering is illegal in my country and fair voting is the norm. I'm also glad that I don't live in a community where individuals get to decide what rules they should follow on the basis of some nebulous concept of personal freedom.

Thanks for the discussion, by the way.

I guess that you have to live outside the US to see what a scary man-baby it is. If a country has all the power in the world, and then decides that rules don't apply to them, it quite a short step to wishing that they would fail and leave the rest of us alone. The delusion is that they have adopted the world cop role. The reality is that they are the world bully.

Defending addiction in the name of freedom is a silly hill to die on.

How about killing off gerrymandering in the name of freedom?

Bullet proof moo-moo?

That makes a ton of difference to the dead schoolkids.

You said dead people can't consent. I said neither can shoes. Tell me the bit where I am wrong?

You have now added something about importance, on which I never commented.

Neither can shoes.

The only country in NATO to invoke the defence retaliation clause in 60 years is the US, following SEP 11.

Anyo e advocating for the military service for others should put their money where their mouth is and sign up, regardless of age.

To be truthful, in this environment, yep, it is.

Racism and inequality exist everywhere, man. It just does. I've seen it in France, Germany, England, Singapore and India. It definitely exists in Australia. If you think guns will fix the problem, or even alleviate it, you will have to show me the evidence, because the US is awash in firearms and things aren't improving. Especially for POC.

What it boils down to, every damn time, is the idea of American exceptionalism. It won't work in America because reasons. Even if systems are placed in other countries, and work fine, it won't work in the states. It is one of the reasons why the US won't adopt the metric system. Only the US and two third world countries haven't made the switch. That's fine, but American exceptionalism has now led you guys into a war that nobody wanted except Israel. Even two thirds of your own country don't want it. This is not a question of gun control, it's an issue of talking yourself into a position, and defending it to the literal death of your own people.

I'm not going to try and convince you anymore. It's no skin off my nose how America runs it's own country. But Americans aren't all that special. People in other countries laugh, poop, sleep, cry, drive, walk and sing, etc. Any system can be adopted if the will of the people want it badly enough. And you guys apparently want to be the world leaders in gun deaths per capita, and that's your decision. But don't try to blame it on the belief that you are an extraordinary different people. You've not.