Actually, the attacks targeted multiple terrorist camps. The Markaz Toiba, Muridke camp alone is responsible for 176 deaths, including 26 foreign nationals from 2008. But I agree, war is stupid.
nargis
joined 3 months ago
Pakistan has also launched a disinformation campaign. Indian tv has too, though I'm not aware of any such case leaking into non-BJP aligned outlets. Except for one newspaper, which fell prey to Pakistani disinformation and then deleted the post after being proven false.
https://www.altnews.in/april-video-of-pakistani-aircraft-crash-shared-with-false-claims-that-pak-took-down-indian-rafale-jet/ https://www.altnews.in/pakistani-media-misreport-used-old-images-of-2-iaf-fighter-jets-as-counter-strike/ https://www.thenewsminute.com/amp/story/news/amidst-operation-sindoor-news-alt-news-zubair-works-over-time-to-fact-check-claims www.outlookindia.com/amp/story/national/fact-check-viral-claim-of-indian-strike-on-karachi-port-uses-2020-gaza-images www.bbc.com/news/articles/c93g3jk39dk https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/india/operation-sindoor-fake-news-india-pakistan-strikes-b2747183.html
Pakistan has also targeted multiple Indian cities, but has been intercepted. It directly targeted the Golden Temple last night in Amritsar.
To set some context, an earlier comment of mine: Markaz Taiba, Muridke was NOT a mosque. It is a very well known terror hideout, even among international journalists. It was used to train Ajmal Kasab and David Headley for the 2008 attacks, which he confessed to in 2008. Osama Bin Laden himself paid for its construction. It was founded in 1988 and Lakhvi himself frequented it.
"In this book I argue that Lashkar’s evolution is informed by two defining dualities: the first is its identity as a militant outfit and as a missionary organization committed to promoting its interpretation of Ahl-e-Hadith Islam"
"In 1984, Lakhvi broke away and formed a small Ahl-e-Hadith group of his own. A year later, Hafiz Mohammad Saeed and Zafar Iqbal, two teachers at the University of Engineering and Technology (Lahore) Pakistan, formed Jamaat-ul-Dawa [Organization for Preaching, or JuD]. This was a small missionary order primarily dedicated to preaching the tenets of Ahl-e-Hadith Islam as interpreted by its founders. Soon after, the two joined forces."
(Source-Storming the World: the Story of Lashkar-e-Taiba, Tankel Stephen) Ajmal Kasab was one of the perpetrators of the 2008 Mumbai attack. JuD is banned now.
"Born in 1987 in Faridkot, Pakistan, Kasab dropped out of school thirteen years later to work as a laborer in his hometown. Within a year he left for Lahore, where he again worked as laborer for nearly five years. After quarreling with his father, Kasab struck out on his own. He landed a job in Jhelum city, north of Lahore. Unhappy with his meager income, Kasab quit in November 2007 and moved to Rawalpindi with a colleague named Muzaffar. A month later Kasab came upon Lashkar members collecting animal hides in the name of Jamaat-ul-Dawa during Eid al-Adha. He and Muzaffar obtained Lashkar’s office address and showed up declaring their desire to wage violent jihad. After giving their names, addresses and other details they were told to return the following morning with extra clothes, whereupon the two received 200 rupees for the bus trip to ‘a place called Marqas Taiyyaaba, Muridke’ where ‘LeT is having their training camp.’ Upon arrival there the two were promptly enrolled in Lashkar’s Daura-e-Suffa training."
(Same source. The book was published in 2011. Daura-e-Suffa refers to religious training, according to the LeT’s interpretation of the Hadiths and the Quran.)
The article you linked mentioned the seminary and classes. This is what it is.
"Life after the ban was not as easy for any of Pakistan’s jihadi groups as it had been beforehand. Fundraising, recruitment and training were restricted to different degrees for different outfits, but none got off scot-free if only because these activities could no longer be carried out as overtly as hitherto. However, the Musharraf regime had no plans to dismantle all of Pakistan’s proxies. As part of what has become known as Pakistan’s ‘double game,’ militant outfits were categorized as ‘good jihadis’ that were covertly supported for continued use as proxies and ‘bad jihadis’ that were cracked down on more harshly. This was not a purely binomial division. Assessments and treatment existed on a spectrum, meaning some ‘good jihadis’ were treated better than others and some ‘bad jihadis’ cracked down on more harshly. Categorization was based on the threats that a group posed to the state and the utility it continued to offer."
ibid. Now look up ‘good Taliban’ and ‘bad Taliban’. The Pakistani establishment still follows the same protocol for terrorists today; kill the ones that are harmful to its interests, or if pressured enough, US interests and let the ones that act as a useful proxy against India to operate freely. Look up Sajad Mir, and how Pakistan denied he existed for many years, then said he died long ago, until he was suddenly declared alive in 2022 and convicted. A French anti-terrorism expert, Jean-Louis Bruguière, in his Some Things that I Wasn’t Able to Say has stated that the Pakistani army trained the militants in the LeT camps based on his interrogation of Sajad Mir’s French companion, Willy Brigiditte.
"Lashkar was the most reliable in Islamabad’s eyes and fared the best. To begin with, it benefited from stronger connections to Pakistan’s army, ISI and civil service than other groups. Several journalists pointed out that, in addition to having recruited retired army and ISI officers into its ranks, Lashkar members had family in the middle ranks of the army and various civilian security agencies. Thus, the group was better connected than any other militant out-fit.4 It also had no strong allegiance to the Taliban and therefore was viewed as less of a threat to the state. According to one former senior official in the Intelligence Bureau, the government ordered Lashkar not to side with the Taliban in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.When it complied, this reinforced the perception that it was an obedient and reliable proxy. Finally, Lashkar’s leadership shared Musharraf’s India-centric priorities and the group remained Pakistan’s most potent proxy. One Western diplomat stationed in Pakistan went so far as to suggest the Musharraf regime would have sacrificed the other outfits if necessary in order to protect Lashkar because of its utility against India."
ibid.
To quote my other comment on c/India:
During the brutal Mumbai attacks, Pakistan denied all charges of complicity. India did everything ‘right’ - it gave a fair trial to Kasab, shared evidence with the international community and urged Pakistan to crack down on terror camps in their country. But what did Pakistan do? It denied that Kasab was a Pakistani national, denied that they had any such camps, banned journalists from going to Kasab’s village. It took years of investigation and coordination with the intelligence agencies of other countries to prove that ISI officials (which worked with the CIA during the Soviet-Afghan War) were complicit. David Headley (thanks America, you never fail to disappoint when creating terrorists) and Tahawuur Rana, masterminds of the attacks, provided the necessary clues.
Pre-26/11 India and Pakistan had the warmest relations they’d had in years. Pakistan’s denial, and subsequent investigation, other terrorist attacks after this (there were many) by the same organisations changed everything.
Sajad Mir, a man claimed by the Pakistani government to be a fantasy cooked up by India, was found to be a real person, one of the planners of the Mumbai attacks. The efforts of international journalists (https://www.propublica.org/article/the-man-behind-mumbai) proved his role. In fact, he had even planned a terrorist attack in Australia, and his fellow conspirator, a French terrorist whose name I don’t recall right now revealed that he was well known in the Pakistani Army and freely went into Pakistani Army bases which civilians typically aren’t allowed to go into, let alone know their location or members. This was when he and his buddy were training Lashker-e-Taiba. Is it so surprising that this genocidal army wouldn’t do anything about known terrorists, then?
Pakistan’s army committed a genocide in living memory - the genocide of Bangladeshis. This is the state you’re defending, and the groups that have spawned from it, which provides cover to the worst scum if it serves their purposes.
Anyway, onto Mir. Mir was declared dead after it was found that he wasn’t so imaginary after all. Pakistan shifted the goalposts - he died long ago, we don’t have to hand him over to India. Then, magically in 2022, he was brought back from the dead and convicted. A French magistrate said that he was a member of the Pakistani Army. He was the son of an officer, after all. Why did Pakistan lie and protect such men? Why did Pakistan’s ISI destroy key evidence in the trial? Why did the state withhold evidence if it has nothing to do with terrorists?
Why are Lakhvi and Hafiz Saeed still chilling in Pakistan? They both have an Interpol red notice. Why is he roaming freely in the country and giving inflammatory speeches? Saeed said his party would be contesting elections in 2018. This is an anti-terrorist state? Yesterday, Masood Azhar said that his mosque and seminary were hit by the missile – why does he have a seminary and mosque to radicalise poor young men of Pakistan? Why does Pakistan take absolutely no action on terrorists except when said terrorists harm the army’s interests?
To claim that the Pakistani state/army (the state has no real power; no PM has served their full term in Pakistan) and the terror apparatus are somehow separate entities flies in the face of evidence.
This same government released Lakhvi in 2015 on bail, who was one of the founders of LeT. 7 years after the attacks. He was released, and is apparently given 3 five-year sentences. Why such leniency, and such convenient disappearance and reappearence?
Look up C. Christine Fair, and read her work about LeT. It wasn’t religiously motivated, it was against known terror bases. There is a list. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/operation-sindoor-full-list-of-terrorist-camps-in-pakistan-pojk-targeted-by-indian-strikes/article69547986.ece with details about who was trained there, which attacks were carried out from there and when. You are literally years behind on the information–2008 and subsequent investigations have revealed quite a lot about LeT’s activities there.
While the Pakistan army continues shelling across Jammu, targeting schools, houses and civilian infrastructure, killing more civilians than armymen, and as of now has targeted cities as well, but was thankfully foiled. One must condemn the war crimes of the Pakistani side as well, to be taken seriously by anyone in India who knows the situation on the ground.
They not only held Bin Laden in 2011, but brought back Sajad Mir from the dead in 2022. He was one of the key conspirators of the 2008 Mumbai attacks. Look up how Pakistan first denied he existed, then denied he was alive, and then finally brought him back from the dead after 14 years.
Markaz Taiba, Muridke was NOT a mosque. It is a very well known terror hideout, even among international journalists. It was used to train Ajmal Kasab and David Headley for the 2008 attacks, which he confessed to in 2008. Osama Bin Laden himself paid for its construction. It was founded in 1988 and Lakhvi himself frequented it. How utterly ignorant you people are. Do some more research. Most Indians remember Kasab's confession.
In this book I argue that Lashkar’s evolution is informed by two defining dualities: the first is its identity as a militant outfit and as a missionary organization committed to promoting its interpretation of Ahl-e-Hadith Islam
In 1984, Lakhvi broke away and formed a small Ahl-e-Hadith group of his own. A year later, Hafiz Mohammad Saeed and Zafar Iqbal, two teachers at the University of Engineering and Technology (Lahore) Pakistan, formed Jamaat-ul-Dawa [Organization for Preaching, or JuD]. This was a small missionary order primarily dedicated to preaching the tenets of Ahl-e-Hadith Islam as interpreted by its founders. Soon after, the two joined forces.
(Source-Storming the World: the Story of Lashkar-e-Taiba, Tankel Stephen)
Born in 1987 in Faridkot, Pakistan, Kasab dropped out of school thirteen years later to work as a laborer in his hometown. Within a year he left for Lahore, where he again worked as laborer for nearly five years. After quarreling with his father, Kasab struck out on his own. He landed a job in Jhelum city, north of Lahore. Unhappy with his meager income, Kasab quit in November 2007 and moved to Rawalpindi with a colleague named Muzaffar. A month later Kasab came upon Lashkar members collecting animal hides in the name of Jamaat-ul-Dawa during Eid al-Adha. He and Muzaffar obtained Lashkar’s office address and showed up declaring their desire to wage violent jihad. After giving their names, addresses and other details they were told to return the following morning with extra clothes, whereupon the two received 200 rupees for the bus trip to ‘a place called Marqas Taiyyaaba, Muridke’ where ‘LeT is having their training camp.’ Upon arrival there the two were promptly enrolled in Lashkar’s Daura-e-Suffa training.
(Same source. The book was published in 2011. Daura-e-Suffa refers to religious training, according to the LeT's interpretation of the Hadiths and the Quran.)
The article you linked mentioned the seminary and classes. This is what it is.
Life after the ban was not as easy for any of Pakistan’s jihadi groups as it had been beforehand. Fundraising, recruitment and training were restricted to different degrees for different outfits, but none got off scot-free if only because these activities could no longer be carried out as overtly as hitherto. However, the Musharraf regime had no plans to dismantle all of Pakistan’s proxies. As part of what has become known as Pakistan’s ‘double game,’ militant outfits were categorized as ‘good jihadis’ that were covertly supported for continued use as proxies and ‘bad jihadis’ that were cracked down on more harshly. This was not a purely binomial division. Assessments and treatment existed on a spectrum, meaning some ‘good jihadis’ were treated better than others and some ‘bad jihadis’ cracked down on more harshly. Categorization was based on the threats that a group posed to the state and the utility it continued to offer.
ibid. Now look up 'good Taliban' and 'bad Taliban'. The Pakistani establishment still follows the same protocol for terrorists today; kill the ones that are harmful to its interests, or if pressured enough, US interests and let the ones that act as a useful proxy against India to operate freely. Look up Sajad Mir, and how Pakistan denied he existed for many years, then said he died long ago, until he was suddenly declared alive in 2022 and convicted. A French anti-terrorism expert, Jean-Louis Bruguière, in his Some Things that I Wasn't Able to Say has stated that the Pakistani army trained the militants in the LeT camps based on his interrogation of Sajad Mir's French companion, Willy Brigiditte.
Lashkar was the most reliable in Islamabad’s eyes and fared the best. To begin with, it benefited from stronger connections to Pakistan’s army, ISI and civil service than other groups. Several journalists pointed out that, in addition to having recruited retired army and ISI officers into its ranks, Lashkar members had family in the middle ranks of the army and various civilian security agencies. Thus, the group was better connected than any other militant out-fit.4 It also had no strong allegiance to the Taliban and therefore was viewed as less of a threat to the state. According to one former senior official in the Intelligence Bureau, the government ordered Lashkar not to side with the Taliban in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.When it complied, this reinforced the perception that it was an obedient and reliable proxy. Finally, Lashkar’s leadership shared Musharraf’s India-centric priorities and the group remained Pakistan’s most potent proxy. One Western diplomat stationed in Pakistan went so far as to suggest the Musharraf regime would have sacrificed the other outfits if necessary in order to protect Lashkar because of its utility against India.
ibid.
To quote my other comment on c/India:
During the brutal Mumbai attacks, Pakistan denied all charges of complicity. India did everything ‘right’ - it gave a fair trial to Kasab, shared evidence with the international community and urged Pakistan to crack down on terror camps in their country. But what did Pakistan do? It denied that Kasab was a Pakistani national, denied that they had any such camps, banned journalists from going to Kasab’s village. It took years of investigation and coordination with the intelligence agencies of other countries to prove that ISI officials (which worked with the CIA during the Soviet-Afghan War) were complicit. David Headley (thanks America, you never fail to disappoint when creating terrorists) and Tahawuur Rana, masterminds of the attacks, provided the necessary clues.
Pre-26/11 India and Pakistan had the warmest relations they’d had in years. Pakistan’s denial, and subsequent investigation, other terrorist attacks after this (there were many) by the same organisations changed everything.
Sajad Mir, a man claimed by the Pakistani government to be a fantasy cooked up by India, was found to be a real person, one of the planners of the Mumbai attacks. The efforts of international journalists (https://www.propublica.org/article/the-man-behind-mumbai) proved his role. In fact, he had even planned a terrorist attack in Australia, and his fellow conspirator, a French terrorist whose name I don’t recall right now revealed that he was well known in the Pakistani Army and freely went into Pakistani Army bases which civilians typically aren’t allowed to go into, let alone know their location or members. This was when he and his buddy were training Lashker-e-Taiba. Is it so surprising that this genocidal army wouldn’t do anything about known terrorists, then?
Pakistan’s army committed a genocide in living memory - the genocide of Bangladeshis. This is the state you’re defending, and the groups that have spawned from it, which provides cover to the worst scum if it serves their purposes.
Anyway, onto Mir. Mir was declared dead after it was found that he wasn’t so imaginary after all. Pakistan shifted the goalposts - he died long ago, we don’t have to hand him over to India. Then, magically in 2022, he was brought back from the dead and convicted. A French magistrate said that he was a member of the Pakistani Army. He was the son of an officer, after all. Why did Pakistan lie and protect such men? Why did Pakistan’s ISI destroy key evidence in the trial? Why did the state withhold evidence if it has nothing to do with terrorists?
Why are Lakhvi and Hafiz Saeed still chilling in Pakistan? They both have an Interpol red notice. Why is he roaming freely in the country and giving inflammatory speeches? Saeed said his party would be contesting elections in 2018. This is an anti-terrorist state? Yesterday, Masood Azhar said that his mosque and seminary were hit by the missile – why does he have a seminary and mosque to radicalise poor young men of Pakistan? Why does Pakistan take absolutely no action on terrorists except when said terrorists harm the army’s interests?
To claim that the Pakistani state/army (the state has no real power; no PM has served their full term in Pakistan) and the terror apparatus are somehow separate entities flies in the face of evidence.
This same government released Lakhvi in 2015 on bail, who was one of the founders of LeT. 7 years after the attacks. He was released, and is apparently given 3 five-year sentences. Why such leniency, and such convenient disappearance and reappearence?
If you had been following the research after the 2008 Mumbai attacks, you wouldn't be saying this. Also, Pakistan directly targeted the Golden Temple, the most famous Gurudwara in India. Funny how you didn''t mention that. Honestly, read. Look up C. Christine Fair, and read her work about LeT. It wasn't religiously motivated, it was against known terror bases. There is a list. https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/operation-sindoor-full-list-of-terrorist-camps-in-pakistan-pojk-targeted-by-indian-strikes/article69547986.ece with details about who was trained there, which attacks were carried out from there and when. You are literally years behind on the information--2008 and subsequent investigations have revealed quite a lot about LeT's activities there.
Also, the Pakistan Army just held a funeral for a UN designed terrorist there. At the innocent 'mosque.' While the Pakistan army continues shelling across Jammu, targeting schools, houses and civilian infrastructure, killing more civilians than armymen.
Lmao, shameless. He refused? Thanks for posting, I would have missed this.
The guy who got his brother, Masood Azhar released? Damn. It's such a pity his brother is alive.
The camps at Bahawalpur and Muridke being demolished is extremely good news, as much as I hate war. I am surprised the 'leftists' on .ml have no knowledge of these existence of these camps, or their history, despite so much academic work about JeM abroad. Afaik, Markaz-e-Taiba was established in 1988 and Lakhvi visited it frequently. Christine Fair did some excellent research into the literature, materials and activities of LeT. Unsurprisingly, westoids remain ignorant of any academic work related to India, Kashmir, and Pakistan apart from YouTube videos.
Anyway, this is good news. Markaz Subhan Allah and Markaz e Taiba have been known by journalists for many years now. The Pakistani Army attending the funeral of Hafiz Abdul Rauf and wrapping his body in the flag is such obvious evidence of sympathy. Unsurprising from the butchers of Bangladesh. I just hope they don't target some Gurudwara, like they did in Amritsar.
Yes, I was wrong. I hope your family is safe.
You'll be fine. Your governments won't wage direct war, they'll sell weapons. The US called it a 'Cold War' while numerous wars directly funded by it were massacring people in the 'third world'. They'll call it 'third world tribalism' or something stupid like that while we fight pointless wars and you'd be shown news about how nice your country is to not go into war, and how utterly uncivilised and stupid we are while they fund armed groups to aggravate people. Why do you care?
Fuck Netanyahu and fuck Trump, but they both also condemned Pahalgam, along with Afghanistan, Germany, UK, France, Russia, and practically every country in the world. Does that mean it was correct, because Israel and US condemned it?
Pahalgam? You do know that 26 people, including 1 Nepali and 1 Kashmiri Muslim was shot point black, all men, 23 of them Hindu pilgrims, 1 Christian and 1 Muslim pony guide who tried to protect one of the tourists was killed, right? That men and women were separated and the men were made to chant the Kalma and those who couldn't, were shot?
India targeted terrorist bases, they provided the names,locations and purpose of each base, which attacks in India were carried out by which base, who was trained where and such details. It was fairly detailed. Look it up. Some were related to the extremely well documented and researched 26/11/2008 Mumbai attacks. That's 17 years old now. Hindus and Muslims in my cousin's area near Mumbai still light candles every day because one person who died has elderly parents living in the same place.
The Muridke camp is well known to journalists and historians - it was established in 1988. It was among the listed sites. I recognised it immediately reading the list today. Masood Azhar confirmed that his mosque and seminary was struck. Look him up. So no, India didn't target civilians willy nilly, they targeted known terror camps based on credible intelligence. The question is, how precise were the strikes and how many civilians were really killed? We also have to count the bodies in Jammu due to artillery shells fired by Pakistan in return. The civilian death toll was higher than the soldiers killed, last time I checked. They also targeted a Gurudwara, apparently. I'd again ask you to read both of my comments in entirety before you respond. It shows some respect for the person you're replying to. You must not admit your ignorance and then feel entitled to give an uninformed opinion on everything. I don't comment on the Russo Ukraine war. It is because I am ignorant, and I am aware of the biases of our media. I shall ask you, very politely, to educate yourself. Don't take it the wrong way.
I'm sorry, but knowing a 'little' is not enough. We've lived through terrorist attacks for years. If the name 'Masood Azhar' doesn't strike a bell to you, you simply have no right to air your prejudices here. If 'Kunan Poshpora' is just a strange word to you, you shouldn't speak, much less in an Indian sub for Indians. Doing your research is necessary. We aren't obligated to explain it to you. We are grieving our dead in Jammu, killed in shelling by the Pak army.
Israel sells weapons. Why wouldn't they support more war? Honestly, please go away if you'd rather just dismiss Pahalgam, Mumbai, Pune, Bangalore, Reasi and God knows how many terrorist attacks done neither by Kashmiris, nor us like the 'leftists' over at .ml. I'm scared, and I don't wish to deal with the toxicity of this shitty government, ignorant bull peddled online for western people looking for a nice black and white narrative, or the hyper nationalist bull from either side. We just heard that Amritsar was targeted, but was stopped by the army. Tomorrow, God knows what fresh new hell will break out.
WW3 isn't going to happen. If you had known anything about the India-Pak conflict, you wouldn't have said that. Look up Pulwama, 2019 and Kargil War.
The official reason was false bomb threats that happened months ago in some schools in Delhi and other places. Completely unrelated to the conflict in Pahalgam or the strikes in Pakistan and Pakistan Administered Kashmir. The rest is far too ignorant to respond to. See my comment here and do some research. Either way, idgaf. Please don't ping me again. I'd much rather talk about it with fellow Indian leftists than with people with no understanding of India or Pakistan.
Not only Hindus. Their treatment of Ahmadis is deplorable. They can't vote (unless they declare themself to be non Muslim). They can't pray in public, quote the Quran or pray in regular mosques. They aren't considered Muslim. The constitution itself discriminates against them.