WARNING: THREAD CONTAINS BOOTLICKERS Hey there user tread lightly this thread have bootlickers .
We could do away with such attention seeking comments tbh, it's good that some have different views imo because you can argue with them. Isn't that the point of this site?
would you prefer for the comments to be all just long string of: "fuck meta" ?
It's not really that bad. It was 1 single comment chain. If you don't want to read the debate, it's a fairly trivial task to collapse the parent comment and carry on with your day.
I’m all for GDPR and really enjoy its protections, but I don’t understand this one. If facebook says they need €10/mo to provide their services and gives us the choice to either pay that or to pay with targeted ads, then how does that infringe upon our data [Edit: ~~integrity~~ autonomy]? The service seems to be worth something, so the EU cannot expect facebook to just give it out for less, can they? What’s the basis for this?
They can just charge €10/mo like every other company does, for example Netflix. They can't offer it as an alternative to the "freely given consent". It's not freely given if the alternative is to pay to not give this consent.
You're free to not use Facebook.
Also, your argument breaks down because there are plenty of free streaming platforms that use targeted advertising as payment for their services.
If anything, Facebook doing this is surprising because they're making data collection opt-in.
The biggest problem with this approach is basically Facebook saying that you have to pay for a right, meaning, if the law tells you that you can, and should, always have a say if you are followed around or not, you mist have that capability. What Facebook is doing is put a right behind a paywall, which is absurd
If I understand you correctly, you’re making the same argument as !snooggums@midwest.social above, so I’ll copy answer to them here:
That is a completely different issue. On the one hand, meta does collect data on people who do not have an account. This is simply illegal, since that collection is neither necessary nor consented to. The EU should finally put a stop to that.
On the other hand we have the voluntary relationship a user enters with facebook by creating an account. This is what the article is about and what I was referring to in my comment – the “binary choice between paying for a service and consenting to their personal data being used to provide targeted advertising”
Are there any rights you think should supersede contracts? If so, how do you draw the line between rights that do and don’t?
Are there any rights you think should supersede contracts? If so, how do you draw the line between rights that do and don’t?
(I’ll answer your question in a comment side-chain, just because you asked.)
Germans have the right to continued wage payments if they need to take care of family members (§616 BGB). However, that right can be voided in the employment contract.
(§618 BGB) essentially states that the work environment must be reasonably safe. This cannot be voided by contract, as is codified in (§619 BGB).
These are just instances. I do not know any general rules for the precedence of contracts over the law or vice versa.
Firstly, this is not "my argument", this is EU's argument.
Secondly, none of these platforms present it as a choice between paying and giving the kind of consent that by law needs to be optional and freely given.
Thirdly, being free to not use a service that is breaking the law does not make it any less illegal.
You’re free to not own or use a car. Should we have no rights when it comes to cars as well?
You’re free to not use the internet. Should we have no rights online?
not really, its so ubiquitous some of their services cant be not used.
its impossible to exist in my country without whatsapp, most businesses do their customer service through whatsapp now.
its impossible to exist in my country without whatsapp, most businesses do their customer service through whatsapp now.
My goodness. That is incredibly sad :(
They can put all the ads they want to finance their services, but if they want to use targeted ones, they have to ask for unbiased users consent.
Suppose non-targeted ads didn’t generate enough revenue. Would it then be legitimate to require facebook to provide their service at a loss?
I would say no. Just as it's not legitimate for any other business to break the law even if that means they're not going to be profitable
Meta is currently acooping all my data as someone who does not a Meta account, which I would need to create ao I could pay them money not to do that.
No, not all the targeted advertising that they collect data for is through Facebook/whatever else they own now.
That is a completely different issue. On the one hand, meta does collect data on people who do not have an account. [Edit: Source: https://www.consumerreports.org/electronics-computers/privacy/how-facebook-tracks-you-even-when-youre-not-on-facebook-a7977954071/] This is simply illegal, since that collection is neither necessary nor consented to. The EU should finally put a stop to that.
On the other hand we have the voluntary relationship a user enters with facebook by creating an account. This is what the article is about and what I was referring to in my comment – the “binary choice between paying for a service and consenting to their personal data being used to provide targeted advertising”
On the one hand, meta does collect data on people who do not have an account. This is simply illegal, since that collection is neither necessary nor consented to. The EU should finally put a stop to that.
Good that you brought that up. And that deserves more attention!
I didn't read the massive thread, no idea if the correct answer is already in there, but there seems to be a lot of text and the answer is realy short.:
This does not prohibit them from using Ads to finance the service.
It just prohibits data collection.
Those two things are not the same.
Privacy is a fundamental human right. It’s not a luxury or a means to extort or monetize customers. That’s why the EU is getting involved. Because companies like Meta will leverage them against monetization.
It’s like going to your doctor and having them tell you that unless you pay them $50 for the visit, they’ll sell your medical data to whomever.
A company has to build their services on top of privacy and security, not use either as a means to monetize or boost profits. That’s what the EU is fighting for. Because we all know what happens when it’s left up to the companies…
This assumes everyone who values privacy can afford another $10mo sub in their life or that it should cost money in the first place. In an issue of consent that shouldn’t be the case.
Using Facebook is not something that's necessary. You're asking a company to give away services for free.
The whole reason it's free is because you are the product, and it's almost always been that way. If you value your privacy and don't want to pay for Facebook, that's a personal decision, and the government shouldn't be involved.
Let's say that I've never had a Facebook account, but Facebook still has a lot of data it has collected about me from multiple sources, including other Facebook users, who might post photos that I am in, or share information about me in posts, neither of which i gave consent to anyone to share.
Is it fair that my only option to protect my private information is to CREATE a Facebook account and pay them to STOP collecting and selling my private information?
That's not what is happening here. Facebook is offering to let you pay for an ad free experience. It has nothing to do with shadow profiles.
You are conflating a lot of different things here and I’m a little too busy at work today to completely disentangle it, but the short version is that none of us are ignorant about what “free“ means online. That is not the debate here so I’m not sure why you’re going off on that when I don’t even disagree there in the first place. It’s just not relevant.
You’re framing this as if a facebook account were mandatory. If you can’t afford $10 per month, don’t use facebook. I don’t.
I never said anything of the sort and I don't know why whether or not the service is mandatory matters. That isn't the bar for us to have consumer/privacy rights.
Just wondering, do you know that reading the article where it's all explained in detail is an option?
Before the change 3% of facebook users agreed to be tracked, after "pay or be tracked" suddenly that jumped to over 90%. The entire point of GDPR is that privacy is a really hard thing to grasp, and that companies have capabilities most people can't even imagine. So the GDPR demands consent to be given freely. Giving users the choice between yet another subscription or "consent" is clearly not free consent, your "free consent" doesn't jump from 3% to 90% if you're not basically coercing your users.
"yeah, but they have the option to pay". Yeah, and then i can start paying for google (each service seperately with complex bundles of course), and facebook, and reddit, and twitter and tiktok and .... and of course everyone has hundreds of dollars to spend on online services to continue using the internet the way we've been using it for a decade.
"yeah, but you could use other services", yeah, i could go to a facebook alternative where none of my friends or family are. Or a youtube alternative where hardly anyone posts videos or... These sites have gained a natural monopoly by being free, and now suddenly i have to pay to not have my rights violated.
And will this long term mean sites like facebook, youtube, ... become unprofitable and collapse? I for sure hope so yes. These companies gained a monopoly in big parts of the internet, and will make insane profits of being in that position either via ads or subscriptions. This is a terrible place for society to be in, and the sooner they collapse, the sooner we as society can start figuring out what would be a model that does work and isn't hostile to its user.
gives us the choice to either pay that or to pay with targeted ads,
Facebook never offered that choice. The only options were
They can still serve you ads, they simply cannot help themselves to your data.
Facebook and Instagram, two of the worst digital creations of all time in terms of sheer damage to human beings.
Not to defend Instagram cause fuck Meta. I'm curious how it would've turned out if Meta didn't buy them way back. Same with WhatsApp. Could they have been great apps now a days instead of deserving of our scourn?
I remember Instagram when it was new. It was an actually photography app. Of course it had the edgy filters (which ~15 year old me made full use of). But the pictures people posted actually had a bit of effort behind them.
Then it started becoming another mainstream social media where most pictures were about people's lunches. I didn't stick around for it's final phase of business ads and thots.
I think it lost the cool factor by the time FB bought it but maybe it would've taken longer to become as ad-infested as it is today
Noice. I hope meta doesn't finagle their way out of it.
Hmmm it looks like social media became a basic necessity, among some at least
The thing that jumps out to me here is that mobile data is apparently worth 20% more than web data and that in no way surprises me but very much pisses me off
Pretty sure it’s because both Apple and Google shave a commission off the top of any in-app purchases. So if you buy a subscription in the app, Meta would actually make less money. So to compensate, they increase the price for in-app purchases.
Alternatively, it could be because adblockers are less prevalent on mobile. Even casual desktop users have begun using adblockers, but very few people block ads on mobile.
It may be higher for two reasons. First thing I thought of, they're accounting for Play Store/iOS fees. Second, I guarantee there's loads more mobile users they can make a few more pennies off of.
~~As far as I know, the service fees only apply to apps that charge for their app or have in-app purchases.~~ sorry, I misunderstood what you meant
I assume that difference has more to do with the value of ads being higher on a smartphone given the abundance of data that isn't available via browser.
Huh, I'm curious how this one turns out. Lots of German news outlets use some kind of privacy paywall for their websites. Its always some pop-up with "read the article for free with tracking or subscribe to [newspaper name] Pure/Plus". So this might affect way more smaller companies than just Meta.
I mean I don't like the choice but at least it's a choice. Journalism costs money so they have to get their budget somewhere, I guess.
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