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submitted 7 months ago by testeronious@lemmy.world to c/linux@lemmy.ml
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[-] someguy3@lemmy.ca 163 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

the government has given the go-ahead for the first step towards complete digital sovereignty in the state, with further steps to follow.

The term digital sovereignty is very important here. If a public administration uses proprietary, closed software that can’t be studied or modified, it is very difficult to know what happens to users’ data:

We have no influence on the operating processes of such [proprietary] solutions and the handling of data, including a possible outflow of data to third countries. As a state, we have a great responsibility towards our citizens and companies to ensure that their data is kept safe with us and we must ensure that we are always in control of the IT solutions we use and that we can act independently as a state.

Digital sovereignty seems to be the primary impetus, so this might go far. Saving money is secondary.

[-] umbrella@lemmy.ml 61 points 7 months ago

digital sovereignty is among the best reasons to switch, good on them!

[-] BCsven@lemmy.ca 38 points 7 months ago

There were also previous notes about public tax dollars should not feed private corporations, but stay within a public system

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[-] Mereo@lemmy.ca 84 points 7 months ago

They will need to stay the course and not be tempted with huge Microsoft savings Microsoft will give them just like what happened with Munich: https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-not-windows-why-munich-is-shifting-back-from-microsoft-to-open-source-again/

[-] Aatube@kbin.melroy.org 80 points 7 months ago

The agreement was finalized Sunday and the parties will be in power until 2026. "We will adhere to the principle of 'public money, public code'. That means that as long as there is no confidential or personal data involved, the source code of the city's software will also be made public," the agreement states.

poggers

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[-] TCB13@lemmy.world 66 points 7 months ago

So the Germany has been moving back and forth between Microsoft and Linux / open-source.

When Munich decided to ditch many of its Windows installations in favor of Linux in 2003, it was considered a groundbreaking moment for open source software -- it was proof that Linux could be used for large-scale government work. However, it looks like that dream didn't quite pan out as expected. The German city has cleared a plan to put Windows 10 on roughly 29,000 city council PCs starting in 2020. There will also be a pilot where Munich runs Office 2016 in virtual machines. The plan was prompted by gripes about both the complexity of the current setup and compatibility headaches.

Do you know what this smells like? Corruption and consulting companies with friends in the govt looking for ways to profit.

What else can be more profitable for a consulting company than shifting the entire IT of a city or a country between two largely incompatible solutions? :)

[-] RvTV95XBeo@sh.itjust.works 51 points 7 months ago

Do you know what this smells like? Corruption and consulting companies with friends in the govt looking for ways to profit.

No it doesn't. It smells like Microsoft has a monopoly on office software, and city employees are not tech enthusiasts. Anyone who used Office at home or in another job is going to complain when they have to learn a new software (regardless of which is "better" - for the average person, different is bad)

Plus, every document they receive from outside is almost certainly formatted in Office, so if there isn't 100% compatibility, people will again complain.

Migrating an entire enterprise to FOSS software is not easy, and in government where leadership changes can be more regular, it's not shocking to see the pendulum swing back and forth.

[-] GlowHuddy@lemmy.world 14 points 7 months ago

Could be both of those things as well.

[-] RvTV95XBeo@sh.itjust.works 9 points 7 months ago

Definitely could be both, but I'd posit that it would still happen regardless of corruption, just because they're taking on the ambitious task of trying something new.

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[-] fuego@lemmy.ca 16 points 7 months ago

That's possible, but in the past I think Germany stuck with Windows after Microsoft gave them a better deal or something.

Heck, they may have even paid Germany to keep using Windows.

[-] BCsven@lemmy.ca 9 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

That is how big companies operate. There was that huge lawsuit / fine of

1.4 billion corruption

A large corporation gave cash to companies and Govt officials to migrate to their software products.

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[-] ProgrammingSocks@pawb.social 54 points 7 months ago

This is unironically a good move for them. As Office gets more and more interconnected you have to wonder if there's a danger of using sensitive data as training for their AI. Not only will it save them money it'll also keep their data secure.

[-] TheHobbyist@lemmy.zip 54 points 7 months ago

I hope they do not try to save that money but rather take the opportunity to invest some of it into the open source ecosystem that are now relying on.

[-] rollingflower@lemmy.kde.social 17 points 7 months ago

Hahaha no way. Im Germany we say "Sparen!"

[-] germanatlas@lemmy.blahaj.zone 14 points 7 months ago

And some lobby bitches say "Schuldenbremse"

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[-] wolf@lemmy.zip 43 points 7 months ago

I have an idea in which federal state Microsoft Germany headquarters will move next...

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[-] anon_8675309@lemmy.world 39 points 7 months ago

Doesn’t Germany do this every so many years to get a better Microsoft deal?

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[-] baru@lemmy.world 35 points 7 months ago

I wonder if this is related to https://www.sovereigntechfund.de/. This as it shouldn't be about saving cost. It should be about being sovereign.

[-] dan@upvote.au 28 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I'm not sure it'll even save them money, at least initially. They're likely paying consultants to work out the best approach, they need to retrain staff, and they'd probably go with a distro like RedHat that has vendor support (plus have paid support for LibreOffice too)

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[-] electro1@infosec.pub 24 points 7 months ago

Moving to Firefox will make a huge impact too

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[-] bluewing@lemm.ee 23 points 7 months ago

A good number of European cities and countries have tried Linux and open source software in the past. They use it for a few years and then they have almost always have quietly gone back to MS Windows and Office products.

As much as I enjoy using Linux, (and no, I don't use Arch), and open source for my own needs, I would be willing to bet after a few years, this German state will quietly move back to Micosoft products again.

[-] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 27 points 7 months ago

The intense pressure from Microsoft doesn't have anything to do with it I'm sure.

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[-] Contend6248@feddit.de 9 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

As the result of a change in the city's government, to leave LiMux and at the time, critics of the decision blamed the mayor and deputy mayor and cast a suspicious eye on the US software giant's decision to move its headquarters to Munich. 

Just a coincidence.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/linux-not-windows-why-munich-is-shifting-back-from-microsoft-to-open-source-again/

[-] VO0RHAMER@lemmy.world 23 points 7 months ago

If they put as much money into these foss projects as they where giving microsoft before, maybe Libreoffice will become halfway decent.

I use Libreoffice and it's fine for a non-power user, but it sure has some rough edges

[-] Olgratin_Magmatoe@lemmy.world 10 points 7 months ago

It has some rough edges to be sure. I've found myself fighting with it quite a bit. But it's usable.

I'm just glad there is more incentive for [organization] to help patch the issues.

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[-] elxeno@lemm.ee 23 points 7 months ago
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[-] fine_sandy_bottom@discuss.tchncs.de 17 points 7 months ago

Awesome. Bravo.

Which municipality was it that switched to Linux only to be seduced back to Windows?

Sadly, I think most employees would hate it particularly if the transition isn't well managed.

[-] TheHobbyist@lemmy.zip 12 points 7 months ago

That was apparently Munich. And even with a promised 90% discount (of which I don't know the terms), they stayed away from Microsoft. But recently they switched back anyway :(

https://itsfoss.com/munich-linux-failure/

[-] NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 16 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

My buddies and I have worked at companies that went through similar transitions and reversions.

The issue is not the cost or even the ideology. It is the training and support. There are a LOT of really good training resources for MS Office and, at least for millennials, outright education in k-12. So, by switching to libre office or anything similar, you are suddenly putting a large burden on yourself and random enthusiast youtubers who will start advertising nordvpn partway through explaining what a pivot table is. Because the vast majority of people don't know how to google "how to edit the footer for slides in Libre Office"

And that RAPIDLY adds up to being a lot more expensive than even the full priced licenses from MS. your more technically competent staff suddenly have very large support burdens because "Oh, I just have a quick question" and that increases their burnout.

That said, it is going to be really interesting in the next 5-10 years (... assuming the world doesn't end in a series of thermonuclear explosions first) since gen-z are very much brought up on Google Docs and the like. So even MS Office will have a significant training overhead for new hires.


At one of my other jobs we had to migrate a codebase from SVN to Git. it... was incredibly overdue and it was making for a greater burden on new hires who had to learn an antiquated toolset to contribute. But it was a genuine concern because most of the existing developers who understood "where the bodies were buried" had already "suffered through giving up on CVS for no good reason". And we genuinely had to acknowledge that we would lose staff "on both sides" and, while I am not proud to admit it, more or less set up a few underperforming early career staff to be sacrificial lambs. Making it a point to let Old Fuck #5 know that the guy who was struggling to understanding how to write performant kernels was available to work through how to write a commit message. That way the rock stars who we were dependent on would not put in their notice.

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[-] yak@lmy.brx.io 17 points 7 months ago

Awesome. Now stick with it!

And remember, different isn't wrong, it's different.

[-] brombek@lemmy.ml 14 points 7 months ago

MS will erect another campus and things will go back to "normal". Hopefully this will last at this time...

Good documentary about MS hold over German government: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duaYLW7LQvg

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[-] TypicalHog@lemm.ee 13 points 7 months ago
[-] RunawayFixer@lemmy.world 13 points 7 months ago

The last time I tried it, which is now a few years ago, LibreOffice Calc was substantially slower than Excell for larger spreadsheets. Like a difference between night and day, it was no acceptable substitute if productivity was a concern, which it usually is.

Imo a big swoop change like this, which is done for ideological reasons, but without practical considerations, is doomed to fail and leave a lasting bad impression in peoples' minds. Imo it would have been far better to only drop windows 10/11 for a familiar looking Linux distro, while continuing to use Microsoft Office.

[-] runeko@programming.dev 22 points 7 months ago

If an Excel sheet is that big, it should be replaced with a proper database, which most likely would run on Linux. I think you're right, though, about the lack of planning around the practicalities.

[-] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 15 points 7 months ago

Using the right tool in an office setting isn't something that's typically done. Unless that tool is a spreadsheet of course. A spreadsheet is always the right tool.

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[-] tabular@lemmy.world 15 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Software freedom is about being in control of your computing. We can't verify what proprietary software from a foreign company is doing on a government computer.

Public money public code is about citizens getting back the code we paid for. When a proprietary company improves software to get paid then they keep that advantage to themselves. LibreOffice is a collaborative project, everyone gains from it being improved by our money.

These aught to be valid concerns as much as productivity: to the degree it affects people. It cannot be dissmssed as being idelogical.

[-] RunawayFixer@lemmy.world 8 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Those are ideological reasons though and me calling them idealogical does not mean that I dismiss them as valid reasons. Idealogy in itself is not a bad thing and it should certainly have a part in decision making.

Where we differ in opinion is in which should take priority: I'm of the opinion that practicality should trump ideology (in this case), while you find the idealogical reasons more important.

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[-] YIj54yALOJxEsY20eU@lemm.ee 10 points 7 months ago

I think reducing their reasons to ideological is not fair. They stand to save a lot of money, reduce the risk of leaking data (to MS or hackers), and will have the ability to fork/add their own features.

While I am not familiar enough with Calc or Excel to comment on the speed, I imagine having an entire government using it could get the ball rolling on optimizations.

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[-] rottingleaf@lemmy.zip 9 points 7 months ago

It's a question of both expenses and dependency on a monopolist.

There simply won't ever be an opportunity to move from MS solutions to FOSS solutions which won't have these problems.

Being dependent is possibly more expensive in the long term too.

[-] olutukko@lemmy.world 13 points 7 months ago

If you throw even half the money that would go to ms license for the foss community instead you can get some pretty huge improvements for that foss program. Blender for example, got actually nice looking and seriously good program while being foss because they got decent funding

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[-] feinstruktur@lemmy.ml 10 points 7 months ago

Well, guy who actually lives there (Schleswig-Holstein) here. Be precise in what's written in tfa. What it laments about is that one (single) work place is about to be installed and that subsequent steps are about to follow.

I don't want to sound too pessimistic here. The fact, that this topic is on the high level agenda shows that it has strong supporters - for the moment.

But weighing in past decades' province goverment's spendings in large scale software projects and peoples' fear of everything even marginally IT, I'm very reluctant to see the big move here. Opposition against changes to my windows is simply unfathomable strong.

Nevertheless - and I mean that - it's a good development.

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this post was submitted on 04 Apr 2024
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