this post was submitted on 22 Apr 2026
30 points (85.7% liked)

Socialism

6979 readers
122 users here now

Rules TBD.

founded 7 years ago
MODERATORS
 

The political compass is an attempt to reduce incredibly complicated political questions into two simple lines, and people accept it because it aligns with oversimplified narratives and cultural preconceptions.

"Liberty" and "authority" have little meaning beyond "good" and "bad." If authority is defined more rigorously, or if we use more neutral terms like "centralization" or public vs private, then it becomes a lot less clear that what we're talking about is contrary to "liberty." The private sector, and private individuals, can be just as restrictive of liberty.

Perhaps the clearest example of this is the American Civil War. The southerners were the champions of decentralization, they spoke constantly about how they were fighting for "liberty" against the supposed tyranny of the northerners - and the reason they wanted "states' rights" and decentralization is that they would be able to keep people enslaved. It was big, centralized government, that evil "authoritarian" force imposing it's authority that resulted in a greater degree of liberty. But that is not just some freak exception.

If someone can't go out at night without fear of being attacked, that person is no more "free" to go out than if they feared legal repercussions. Governments are, at their worst, no different from a criminal organization, and yet there is this tendency to assign special status to restrictions imposed by the law, rather than being on the same level as restrictions imposed by private individuals or organizations.

And again, we can see how "big government" or "authoritarianism" can increase liberty in the context of regulations, of pollution, of food safety, and of untested drugs. If I can trust regulators to stop a restaurant from serving anything unsafe, then I'm free to order anything off the menu, whereas if not, then everything's a gamble and I might feel restricted to foods I expect to be "safe," if I don't avoid the restaurant entirely.

There once was a time when states viewed things like murder as a personal dispute between families, and didn't generally get involved. This led to all kinds of generational feuds, with people killing each other over a long forgotten dispute between their great-grandfathers. Was that "liberty?" Is that something we should idealize and try to return to?

I'm sure there are people who will read this as me being "pro-authoritarian" and ignoring all the bad things done by states. But that's missing the point. The point is not that centralization or state power are always good, the point is that it's not automatically bad. Having a knee-jerk reaction against it is just oversimplifying complicated issues, and doing so in a way that lots of powerful people want you to do. Because the ruling class understands that they can wield private institutions and privatization just as they can wield public institutions.

You can't just blindly apply an idealist ideological framework of "anti-authoritarianism" to every problem and expect that to produce good results. You have to look at things on a case-by-case basis, applying class analysis.

top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[–] orc_princess@lemmy.ml 12 points 4 months ago (1 children)

The compass is also stupid because it made me very libertarian just because I'm socially progressive, and I'm a communist. It seems to me to just be an attempt to confuse well meaning, politically illiterate people.

[–] MonkCanatella@sh.itjust.works 2 points 4 months ago (2 children)

do communists want a classless, stateless society?

[–] orc_princess@lemmy.ml 10 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Yeah, but we contend with material reality and understand we can't just press the communism button and will it into existence, the transition to a classless and stateless society is a very complex process that requires solving societal contradictions

[–] MonkCanatella@sh.itjust.works -2 points 4 months ago

Can you elaborate on that? Bc all I got from that is "it's a secret and only I know how to do communism"

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 8 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Yes, but we also recognize that the path to statelessness involves abolishing the basis of the state, that being class struggle, and that this can't happen overnight, so the working classes need a working class state as this is accomplished. Further, administration is not the same as what we think of as the state.

[–] MonkCanatella@sh.itjust.works 1 points 4 months ago (2 children)

what is a working class state exactly? Why even call it a state if it's "not the same" as a state?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 4 months ago (1 children)

A working-class state is a state under the control of the working classes. It isn't the same as a bourgeois state or feudal state.

[–] MonkCanatella@sh.itjust.works 2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

How is it different? How is it under the control of the working classes?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 4 months ago (1 children)

How is a feudal state different from a bourgeois state? What changed after the French revolution? The difference is who is in control of political power and whose representatives fulfill state roles. Surely you can see how Cuba and Brazil are entirely different?

[–] MonkCanatella@sh.itjust.works -2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

How is a so called working-class state different from a bourgeois state? And also how is it under the control of the working class? How would you define "under the control of the working class"?

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 months ago (6 children)

The difference is that the state is made up of the working classes, quite literally, and runs the state in the interests of the proletariat. I don't know why people need to keep explaining this over and over.

load more comments (6 replies)
[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 months ago (1 children)

The state is an organ of class rule, for the oppression of one class by another; under capitalism it is for the oppression of the working class by the bourgeoisie, under socialism it is the exact opposite.

[–] MonkCanatella@sh.itjust.works -2 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Ok so there's no communism button, but there is a button that reverses the power structures in the state, make it make sense

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (1 children)

We have a lot of real-world historical examples of revolution, and the old ruling class doesn't simply vanish. They're going to still be around, and as long as the bourgeois class exists they'll need to be oppressed. There's no button that just gets rid of them.

This is especially true when capitalist imperialism is the dominant world system. Building stateless communism in one country is nonsensical. The bourgeois rule the world, what we can do under socialism is repress them with a worker's state.

[–] MonkCanatella@sh.itjust.works 0 points 4 months ago (1 children)

Sure, you expel bourgeois people from the state somehow. Then you use the state to oppress them. What I'm still not understanding is how that doesn't simply recreate the previous power structures. How does MLism prevent the administrative class from just becoming the new bourgeois class?

[–] queermunist@lemmy.ml 5 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) (21 children)

Well, why didn't the bourgeois simply make themselves into royalty? Why did they abolish feudalism and establish capitalism?

It's because the power structures are rooted in the material base, the material interests of the ruling class reflect the material base. They didn't just think up the idea to get rid of the aristocracy and then defeat them, they pursued their own material interests which meant the pursuit of markets and private property and commodity production and wage labor and bourgeois dictatorship.

It is the same for a workers' state, the material interests of the ruling class reflect the interests of the new ruling class and that makes them inherently different at the base level. This isn't as simple as simply expelling the bourgeois from the state, it requires a total revolution of the material base as well. We have to build an economy where it doesn't even make sense to have a bourgeois class, where worker control and central planning and collective ownership are the best system for managing production.

And during this transition phase, there will still be a bourgeoisie. That's why there needs to be a state to oppress them.

load more comments (21 replies)
[–] Maxxie@piefed.blahaj.zone 3 points 4 months ago

Naturally you have to have a certain amount of authority to create a system with guaranteed rights. But the words are still accurate:

If you want to guarantee lots of rights for all (or some) you'll want powerful government with lots of authority. Authoritarian.

Feel like strong government is too much of a threat for personal freedom to be worth it? Libertarian.

[–] onoira@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 points 4 months ago

The political compass is an attempt to reduce incredibly complicated political questions into two simple lines

uphold multipolarist thought /hj

[–] cerebralhawks@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 4 months ago (1 children)

The way I see it, it's a matter of where a person's mind is at — that doesn't necessarily mean that, A, you know everything about their opinions (those will be formed partially by their environment and experience) or B, that they'll never change.

My understanding on liberty vs authority is that everybody (generally) believes they have the right to liberty, to determine the course of their lives. Liberty means you believe others are as well, and authority means you believe liberty should be determined by the government.

Regarding restaurants, I never thought of it that way. I always thought of liberty as personal liberty, not the liberty to start a company and do bad things. But you're right, someone who is 100% for liberty and 0% for authority would seem to be opposed to all kinds of regulation, thinking "you are free to start a company that has no safety considerations and I am free to seek work elsewhere," with the reasoning being that the society will self regulate, that the company will push safety to attract workers. But it's never that simple.

So when I say I lean heavily toward liberty on that scale and heavily toward progression (as opposed to conservatism), you may be able to guess some of my positions and some of my votes, but you're right in that things aren't that simple, and people vote against their interests all the time.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 10 points 4 months ago

Really, it's a Marxist critique of the liberal political compass. I believe that while class struggle exists, the state must exist, and since that's the case the working classes should hold state power and use it in their interests. This maximizes personal liberty for a large majority of society while curbing the liberty of the former ruling classes, while also being "authoritarian" in the eyes of liberals.

load more comments
view more: next ›