Flippant Anarchism. A lighter take on social criticism with the aim of agitation.
Post humorous takes on capitalism and the states which prop it up. Memes, shitposting, screenshots of humorous good takes, discussions making fun of some reactionary online, it all works.
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Absolutely no right-wing jokes. This includes "Anarcho"-Capitalist concepts.
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No shaming people for being anti-electoralism. This should be obvious from the above point but apparently we need to make it obvious to the turbolibs who can't control themselves. You have the rest of lemmy to moralize.
Join the matrix room for some real-time discussion.
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/63691775
Posted this in Fediverse Memes but got deleted for some reason, can't imagine why.
At this point I wish you'd go ahead and defederate, if that makes these idiotic discussions stop.
I'm actually offended by being called a supporter of the Israeli government just because feddit is my home instance.
I'm also pretty sure that feddit-bashing won't improve the life of a single Palestinian one bit.
The discontent is directed at the admin team which is incessantly equating criticism to Israel as antisemitism.
I'm also pretty sure that feddit-bashing won't improve the life of a single Palestinian one bit.
We should always fight conflation between antisemitism and anti-zionism, the favorite tool of zionists to dissimulate their heinous acts in Palestine, Syria and Lebanon.
You can criticize Israel on feddit, most of its users do.
Calling for the destruction of Israel isn't criticism. Same as writing "Death to America" wouldn't be criticism of the Trump administration.
And if you react to a comment removal by telling the mods to kill themselves or calling them Nazis, you'd get booted off any instance regardless of what the comment was about.
Do you think the State of Israel will improve or something? The only acceptable improvement is the dissolution of the Israeli State. Anything less is only pulling the knife out 6 inches.
Israel was founded 75 years ago as an explicitly settler-colonialist ethnostate project on the existing land of Palestine. This was wrong and unacceptable then and it continues to be so. The state of Israel should not exist as such. Death to Israel.
Criticism is something where the other side can say "you're right, I'll stop that and do better".
"Israel shouldn't exist" isn't criticism, the Israelis currently living there can't just stop existing.
Why are you Kraut fuckers always so intent on conflating a population with a nation-state? Literal blood-and-soil nationalism. Dismantling Israel doesn't necessarily have to mean the cessation of existence for all its current citizens, and it's intellectually dishonest not to acknowledge that fact in this conversation.
Being charitable, I wonder if there is a language barrier thing happening here. I'm by no means fluent in German, but as far as I can tell, words like "death" and "dead" are far more versatile and used metaphorically far more often in English than in German.
I'm german, there is no language barrier. The cultural barrier is that my countrypeople can't separate between a nation and it's citizens.
The fact that they can't think of another way to get rid of settlers, when they launched a genocidal settlement campaign not even 100 years ago across poland and had to be "resettled" west of the Oder after they lost, speaks to how much they actually learned from their past.
I think they just like to always assume the worst in order to justify their own overly broad definition of antsemitism, accusations of which are used to shield Israel (and Germany's support of Israel) from valid criticism. After all if they can claim they are fighting antisemitism instead of aiding a genocide, then the political optics are much better.
Fediverse Memes has some pretty selective and meh moderation, really limits what parts of the Fediverse are allowed to be memed. I’ve ended up blocking it entirely.
Probably going to need an alternative comm soon.
We will make our own Fediverse memes! With fediverseball and fedispiders!
I don't know guys. Feddit is a general instance, so there are also Libs here and probably even a few Zionists. But my impression is that most people are very critical of Israel.
impression is that most people are very critical of Israel.
When you go in the details with those people you realize quickly that they are lying
In this exact thread you have a feddit user who went from self-victimizing (German specialty) "I'm offended you would think I support the Israeli government because of my instance" to "it's wrong to say Israel shouldn't exist" IN ONE COMMENT.
It's not about the users per se but the admin team whixh is adamant on appeasing zionists.
I saw the “controversy”: at what point do you follow unjust laws about genocidal apartheid states and say you have had enough genocide?
Is “fuck Bibi’s ethnostate” allowed?
Is “fuck apartheid religions” allowed?
I would say that “fuck Bibi's ethnostate” is not a problem at all. “Fuck apartheid religions” could be a problem if it criticizes Jews as a group and not the ideology of Zionism. The same applies to right-wingers who accuse all Muslims of being terrorists because they are part of a terrorist religion, instead of limiting this to the ideology of Islamism. In general, I would say that it makes a very, very big difference whether one directs one's criticism at Judaism or Jews, or at Israel and Israelis.
What is repeatedly discussed is whether moderating “Death to Israel” (or similar) and banning corresponding users is an expression of a Zionist ideology on the part of the feddit moderators. To this I would say: even if the author means Israel as a state and is not calling for the death of Israelis, he is aware of and accepts the possibility of the latter interpretation and its ambiguity. To interpret the moderation of this as Zionism is, in my opinion, exaggerated and malicious. It also empties the term "Zionism" of its analytical content.
“Fuck apartheid religions” could be a problem if it criticizes Jews as a group
Why Judaism in particular, when it's not the only apartheid religion in existence? I don't want racist religions to exist.
“Death to Israel” means both: the state, and it's racist religion. Bibi wants the Torah’s theist ethnostate. This is why he is genociding Palestinians. We are not saying “death to jews,” we are saying “death to theist ethnostates, esp. Bibi’s interpretation killing millions of people.”
Zionists are one class above the same ethnostatism. We don't want eithers.
Yeah if all jews were into aoartheid, fuck the whole religion.
Im pretty sure theyre not. But like if they were. Like, the problem with 'the protocols of the elders of zion' is that it is¹ a crock of filthy completely made up fucking lies put together to direct the peasantry's very real frustrations at what their owners were doing against some poor fucking scapegoats who had not in fact done any of that shit. If it were true, if someone actually did do half that shit² they would totally deserve extermination!
¹until the zionists came along and started LARPing it
²like every authoritarian ruling caste ever. Or a trio of assholes in new york. Now if youll excuse me, im late to drain my blood boy.
all jews were into aoartheid, fuck the whole religion.
You're doing the thing Æquitas & I are not: associating a cultural identity to an apartheid religion. We are clearly against apartheid religions for blatant reasons. That includes Judaistic apartheism. The few non-racist Judeos are not the whole that want to see Palestinians killed.
Death to Judeo apartheism.
Im literally saying... Fucking nevermind.
Just correct yourself:
Death to Israel.
Read what i said. Like actually read it. With clauses and all. Don't look for shibboleths; read what i fucking said.
I do not need to correct myself.
Why are you then still affiliating a word for a group identifying a culture for a religion were are clearly against?
I am making clear distinctions of a religion, fanatics, and a cultural identity. Why can't I say “death to apartheism?”
Its a fine statement. Im not taking issue with what you said about third parties not in this conversation.
I like what you write, the way you write it, so well that I must, of course, of course, link to an absolutely fantastic song that is so well elaborated upon everyone's comprehension struggles with this so well enamored diddle of detail.
Context is important here, in my opinion. It is one thing to claim that Judaism is worse than other religions in this regard (which it is not, as evangelicals or ISIS prove, for example), and quite another to accuse religions in general of a tendency toward apartheid. The problem is not Judaism, but Israel's political ideology. It would make no difference if the Israelis were Sikh, Shinto, or Zoroastrian. Furthermore, most Jews do not live in Israel, but in the US.
“Death to Israel” is ambiguous. It can be read, for example, as “Death towards Israel” and, of course, as “Death to the Israelis” or, as you mean it, as “Death to the state of Israel.” The fact that you have to explain what exactly is meant illustrates this very clearly. And I think that the slogan is deliberately ambiguous. It is intended to provoke and reliably achieves its goal through this ambiguity. It would be easy to resolve the contradiction by adding “state of.” And if one is really concerned with objectivity and not emotions, one could also omit the word ‘death’ and just say “Dissolve Israel.” No ambiguity but delivers the message you want. Doesn't sound as impressive and martial tho.
It is simply exaggerated and intellectually lazy to accuse Feddit.org of Zionism, where any criticism of Israel would be suppressed. Recently, there was a discussion on feddit about giving the Israelis a piece of Bavaria and returning Israel to the Palestinians. It was not banned or moderated away.
Yeah, we’re not going to entertain your denial of Judaistic apartheism.
“Death to Israel” is ambiguous
it's not. We made this pretty clear here, and elsewhere.
The fact that you have to explain
It's the otherway around: the fact you want to ambiguoize a simple phrase by enforcing an unjust law your German state as your justification makes it clear to everyone which stance you police and ban for.
We are blatantly accusing your instance of policing anti apartheid ethnostate press against a current active genocidal state, that just so happens to banner Israel’s name in vain. Israel fought an angel for his name, and now we have to fight you too?
Yeah, we’re not going to entertain your denial of Judaistic apartheism.
American nationalists have their “God's own country,” and radical Christians interpret the Bible in exactly the same way as nationalist from Israel interpret the Torah. I don't think I need to quote you any relevant passages from the Bible. ISIS, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and the Iranian theocracy do the same thing with Islam. Indian nationalists do the same with Hinduism. The problem here is political ideology, not religion per se. If you think that Jews are evil because of their religious background, then you are indeed crossing the line into antisemitism, and we will not agree. If you criticize Israel's political ideology, Zionism, that's completely different and legitimate. But just like religious nationalism in the US, Iran, or India, it has nothing to do with the respective religion. It only serves to legitimize it. To disregard this is either stupidity or malice.
it’s not. We made this pretty clear here, and elsewhere.
It's not a good sign for a political slogan if you have to read the fine print to get the right interpretation. You're also overestimating how many people are actually confronted with something like this. That's why very few people will have heard about the clarification of this slogan. This in turn leads to provocations, overly emotional debates, misunderstandings, and insults. I can understand why the mods delete such content tbh.
you want to ambiguoize a simple phrase by enforcing an unjust law your German state as your justification
what are you talking about? I am not enforcing shit. I have no power anywhere. I just want to explain why it's ridiculous to accuse people of Zionism because they have a problem with this phrase. Why do you demand the benefit of the doubt for yourself, but are not willing to grant it to others?
We are blatantly accusing your instance of policing anti apartheid ethnostate press against a current active genocidal state
If you think that the only way to speak out against a current active genocidal state is to write “Death to Israel,” then that's not just pathetic, it's childish.
I don't think it helps to keep explaining to you that it is perfectly possible to speak out against the genocide of Israel on feddit.org, that this is even the majority opinion there. This is just one of those shitty left-wing purity contests that exist on other issues as well, which have been weakening the left for decades.
It's not a good sign for a political slogan if you have to read the fine print to get the right interpretation.
Do you read the fine print for "Deutschland verrecke" or "Death to America" as well, or does that only apply when it comes to Israel?
You're also overestimating how many people are actually confronted with something like this. That's why very few people will have heard about the clarification of this slogan.
We're on Lemmy, which means unless you limit yourself to just the local feddit.org feed (and I know for a fact that the typical zionists on feddit don't), you get confronted with this on a fairly regular basis. And you wouldn't need any clarification if you knew how to fucking read. Israel ≠ Israelis, it's literally that simple.
I can understand why the mods delete such content tbh.
I can't. We're on a federated platform with an international community, which made it clear countless times that "Death to Israel" does not refer to killing all the Israelis/Jews in the world, often even explicitly speaking out against this. Considering that most Feddit users are proficient in English, especially admins/mods and those I've seen to misinterpret this slogan, I refuse to believe that they don't know this by now. And somehow this (along with the absolute clusterfuck of Anti-Germans) is almost an exclusively German issue, because the rest of the international Left understands just fine what this slogan means.
If you think that the only way to speak out against a current active genocidal state is to write “Death to Israel,” then that's not just pathetic, it's childish.
Nobody claims that this is the only way, but considering that the existence of Israel as its own state to this day prevents and more than likely will continue to prevent peaceful coexistence, it's a justified one. Is it pathetic and childish? Maybe, but much less so than misinterpreting it to fit your narrative.
Do you read the fine print for “Deutschland verrecke” or “Death to America” as well, or does that only apply when it comes to Israel?
Tell me: when Islamists in Iran, Afghanistan, or Iraq chant “Death to America,” do they simply mean the dissolution of the United States? Of course not. They mean the death of everything American, including American people. At least, that's how I've always interpreted it. If you think that it's really just an anarchist critique of US statehood, I would find that remarkable. “Deutschland verrecke”, on the other hand, is a phrase used almost exclusively by Germans. Context matters, as I wrote above.
you get confronted with this on a fairly regular basis
I don't. And I'm in a lot of English subs.
I refuse to believe that they don’t know this by now
Even if that were true, which I doubt, there is still the possibility that some people will not accept your interpretation, but one of the others. The sentence could, for example, come straight from the neo-Nazi scene. And since you don't know who is behind a post on the internet, ambiguities lead to problems. Especially when one of the interpretations calls for the death of people.
because the rest of the international Left understands just fine what this slogan means.
However, Feddit.org is not a left-wing, but rather a general instance like lemmy.world. I am also relatively certain that the sentence would be moderated away on lemmy.world as well.
Nobody claims that this is the only way
Yes, your previous poster claims that deleting and prohibiting such posts is “policing anti-apartheid ethnostate press against a current active genocidal state.” This ignores the fact that objective, unambiguous and clear criticism is perfectly acceptable and, in my experience, even represents the majority opinion (which says a lot on a general instance). To conclude from the rejection of “Death to Israel” that Zionism is supported here is not only logically incorrect. It is intellectually lazy, exaggerated, malicious, and, yes, childish.
Death of everything American, including American people.
Based
when Islamists in Iran, Afghanistan, or Iraq chant “Death to America,” do they simply mean the dissolution of the United States? Of course not.
No, dumbass. This is just orientalist bullshit, I don't even know what Iraq is doing here, you just don't know what you're talking about.
Khamenei literally said otherwise. It's a normal saying in iran, they even say it about traffic.
At least, that’s how I’ve always interpreted it.
Vibes based analysis, huh? Maybe try reading shit next time, instead of pulling racist bullshit out your ass.
And, yes they have every fucking right to be pissed at Israel and the USA. Why wouldn't they? The USA overthrew their fucking government in the 1953 for BP oil, and because they dared nationalize their oil industry. Israel is committing a genocide and colonizing Palestine, and have been fucking over/invading their neighbors for decades now. Not that your European ass would know shit, of course.
Calm down and don't accuse me of things I haven't said dummy. Of course Israel is committing genocide and of course the USA is a criminal country. Where did I give the impression that this wasn't the case?
And no, Islamists want people dead, including innocent civilians, as evidenced by their actions. I was just trying to express this in a less confrontational way for small-minded people like you. Even if one considers attacks on innocent civilians in Israel, the USA or Europe to be justified, which is disgusting enough, Islamists also kill innocent people in the Middle East. Be it in Rojava, as was the case a few weeks ago, or anywhere else. How pathetic can you be to side with these people because of your justified rejection of Israel or the USA?
The fact that you call me a racist also shows me that you still cannot distinguish between religion, origin and ideology. So kindly shut the fuck up.
No shit they want people dead, you're saying "death to Israel/America" in general somehow has islamist roots, it's literally a normal saying in Iran dumbass.
I was just trying to express this in a less confrontational way for small-minded people like you
Again, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I have provided two links backing my point, so far you have used vibes to treat your position as absolute truth.
which is disgusting enough, Islamists also kill innocent people in the Middle East. Be it in Rojava, as was the case a few weeks ago, or anywhere else. How pathetic can you be to side with these people because of your justified rejection of Israel or the USA?
No shit? I'm not defending them, I'm calling out your bullshit saying Death to X is literal, which no the fuck it isn't.
The fact that you call me a racist also shows me that you still cannot distinguish between religion, origin and ideology. So kindly shut the fuck up.
You lumped in Iran, Afghanistan and Iraq all at the same time, you realize how little in common Iraq has to Afghanistan and Iran? You just mindlessly wrote US state dept enemies from the fucking 2000s, and again, you didn't respond at all to the links literally disproving your bullshit completely lmao. Sit on a stick, Saurkraut
Most usages in the middle east of "Death to X", are not literal and it's embarrassing seeing morons never grasp this lol. Even Wikipedia mentions this, not a mention of this hypothetical "islamist usage" you're talking about. You don't know what you're talking about and that's okay, just know when to shut the fuck about things you have no clue on 👼
You are the one assuming phrases calling for the death of a nation state are a literal call to genocide everyone inside that nation state. That's the worst possible bad faith interpretation of that phrasing one could make. Yes it's one possible meaning, among many others. Yet despite everyone here telling you your interpretation is bad faith and that's not what we mean by it, here you are insisting your interpretation is the only possible correct one. I don't know if the German language is just very literal about such things, but that's simply not how English works. Essentially what you and Feddit.org and Germany itself has done, is to mischaracterise that phrase by redefining it according to your own biases, and then banning the phrase on the basis of your own definition. That's what is lazy and malicious and childish.
Islamists may be fine with some civilian casualties, but I have no reason to believe that this is their main goal. Even the actual large scale attacks against the US so far (11-9) were directed towards the nation and its economy (WTC, pentagon, capitol) and not some random civilian hotspot. Then again, this wasn't simply a religiously motivated attack and not every Islamist is the same, some may be more extreme than others, but to me the past events and expressions that I know of have not shown a clear intent to kill all Americans. I don't think it's really an anarchist critique, just a critique against the countless atrocities committed by the American governments and a call for systematic change, as in "Tear America down, then rebuild it into something that can't just meddle in other countries politics and kill our people as it pleases".
The fact that "Deutschland verrecke" is coming from Germans doesn't change anything about the situation, because ironically this one is sometimes accompanied by a "Bomber Harris, do it again!", which actually is a call for killing civilians, coming from Germans themselves. But without the second slogan, I also wouldn't think that this is a call for killing all Germans, no matter if it's Germans or anyone else saying it.
I don't. And I'm in a lot of English subs.
Have you blocked some instances or communities? Because I know for a fact that discussions around this are a somewhat regular occurrence, even with the instances feddit.org is federated with, because I was able to see them as well when I was there. It may not discussed as much anymore as it was up to a year ago, but still occasionally flares up, IIRC it also came up again in the db0 thread about the vote for defederating feddit, but I may be wrong here.
The sentence could, for example, come straight from the neo-Nazi scene.
Unlikely. Neo-nazis may be against Jews, but they're generally very pro-Israel. Which is only logical, because ethno-nationalism is kinda their thing, and "better have the Jews over there than here with us". Just take a look at right-wing and literal Nazi Twitter accounts and take a shot every time you see an Israel flag in their name or bio. You'll probably pass out drunk in just 5-10 minutes.
However, Feddit.org is not a left-wing, but rather a general instance like lemmy.world. I am also relatively certain that the sentence would be moderated away on lemmy.world as well.
It still has an overwhelmingly left-leaning user base but yeah, fair point. And lemmy.world is the pinnacle of liberal garbage, so wouldn't surprise me. Still, there are a lot of instances that are general-purpose or focused on other non-political topics without misunderstanding this slogan.
Yes, your previous poster claims that deleting and prohibiting such posts is “policing anti-apartheid ethnostate press against a current active genocidal state.”
They're not wrong. Of course there are more objective ways to go about this, but that doesn't change the fact that moderating such posts is useless policing (hint: "policing" doesn't mean "not allowing one side to post at all") against a side objecting to genocide and the existence of settler-colonial ethnostates. And if you're so sure that it's not a zionist instance, you could try voicing the opinion on Feddit that Israel shouldn't and doesn't have the unquestionable right to exist. I'm very curious if this more neutral way of saying it with no ambiguity about the killing of civilians will get removed. If it will be, which I'm almost certain about, it's a zionist instance. But I'm open to be proven wrong.
And sorry for slightly leaving the discussion at hand here, but with a societal, online and media landscape that has basically no issue with supporting Israel and the IDF or even being in favor of supplying (more) weapons to Israel, which has the known implication of more bloodshed in the real world, happening right now where thousands of innocent civilians, many of them children, are dying every month, we're seriously making a fuzz about a slogan that simply calls for the dissolution of a state at best, and is ambiguous to the political illiterates at worst? This is insane, and I mean this in the literal way.