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A question of what level of evidence should be convincing often comes up in health and nutrition discussions.

Observational Epidemiology

This is the vast majority of nutritional publications (notice how I didn't say science). Often people, not just lay people, will use terms like

  • it is known
  • science says
  • experts say
  • causes
  • good/bad

Newspapers/blogs/articles are the worst at this, sensational clickbait headlines asserting things that cannot possibly be known.

If the publications said something like "Hey, this very weak, weirdly constructed association was seen in this observational dataset with a 1/20 chance of being nonsense noise" that would be fine, but that is NEVER how this weak information is presented....

The core problem with this approach is that people are taking as a fact that there exists a direct causal link from A to B in all circumstances because someone with authority said there was a link.

Science Publication Cyclehttps://phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1174

This paper is far more compelling and elegant then I could be, its worth a read for the entire teardown of observational fallacies and pitfalls. [Paper] What is the role of meat in a healthy diet? - 2018 [Opinion]

Under what circumstances would I personally look at a observational epidemiology study and consider it to modify my behavior?

  • Hazard Ratios greater then 4 (far greater honestly, but 4 is the floor)
  • Absolute Risk reported in the paper (not relative)
  • Clear signal across different studies

This is the absolute bare minimum to make me take a paper seriously, and then I will ask... why hasn't this hypothesis been turned into a interventional study? Basically - this means something that ONLY exists as epidemiology isn't compelling and not relevant to my life as a human.

Epidemiology is hypothesis generating, it cannot establish cause and effect links... this means it is NOT SCIENCE - by definition. Science requires a falsifiable and testable hypothesis, epidemiology does not satisfy this definition. It's the start of science, but in isolation it is not science, it does not use the scientific method.

But! It's the best data we have!

(some people say) That means the data we have isn't compelling, isn't scientifically tested or proven, and at best should be used as a basis for hypothesis to test in interventional studies... it should not actually change your life, be reported as fact, or used in internet arguments.

What about smoking? Smoking causes cancer and that was all observational epidemiology.

That epidemiology had hazard ratios of 6000 (far greater then 4), was consistent across different reputable studies, demonstrated in animal interventions... and most importantly there is no medical benefit to smoking... Giving up smoking is all upside, no real tradeoff. That being said.... we actually don't know that smoking causes cancer in all contexts - the health of the subject, their diet, their lifestyle, their genetics... there are smokers who die without lung cancer.

Statistical Literacy

Most people suck at math. Most people good at math suck at Statistical thinking, it simply isn't intuitive. Frankly its a disservice to people to report on weak associational studies in the media. Throwing statements out like 'Study shows with statistical significance that fizz will buzz (p=0.05)' and expecting the reader to understand how weak that statement is.... well, at best your setting up readers for failure, at worst its deceptive using an appeal to authority logical fallacy to sell a message.

statistical significancehttps://explainxkcd.com/882/

Animal Studies

These seem compelling, and they are a very important area of research, but it should be very clear that mice are not humans, pigs are not humans, etc. A good animal study is a good jumping off point for human interventional trials. A animal study by itself tells us about the animal and not the human. This is especially important when talking about diet, exercise, GI issues, brain, etc.

Not to mention that many animal studies will add poison, or mutated genes to force a bad outcome to happen... not a pristine animal in its natural context.

Intermediate end-points

As humans we care about hard endpoints, hard outcomes, death, injury, etc. Intermediate metrics as a stand-in for hard end points don't tell the full story, the human body is incredibly complex. The intermediate metrics can also be misunderstood (such as LDL being considered a negative endpoint, even though its not a disease and often misunderstood) biasing the actual findings.

Consider if exercise and the gym was being invented today, and studied. Going to the gym elevates heart rates, blood pressure, etc, intermediate metrics that would be considered bad, and if that is all we looked at exercise would never pass a modern ethics board.

Mechanistic / Opinion / Consensus Statements

Mechanistic is useful for researchers to establish theories and explanations that can be tested

Consensus Statement - A opinion shared by multiple people

Opinion - A expert renders an opinion based on research, ideally hard science summarized concisely, but a opinion is only as strong as the actual science it is based on... basically a opinion built upon epidemiology is only as valuable as the epidemiology (good for hypothesis', but not useful for humans).

Comparing interventions only against the standard american diet (SAD)

The standard western diet is so bad, any intervention in nutrition will show better outcomes, seriously. Showing that a all pasta diet reduces rates of t2d doesn't tell me that pasta is a superfood, just that the baseline diet is so tragic.

Relative weight of evidence

evidence pyramid

Meta-analysis of interventional randomized control trials are the gold standard in science, and that is the gold standard for me - I will pay attention and take seriously this data, and look closely at the analysis

A RCT by itself is also quite impactful, and worth reading

A interventional trial (non-randomized) has flaws, but can show real mechanisms in action, and worth reading as well.

A Meta-analysis of epidemiology is only as good as the epidemiology it is based on, so this isn't compelling to me.

Mendelian randomization (of epidemiology)... same as the above, its only as as good as the garbage put into it. Imagine trying to do a meta-analysis of LLM hallucinations to find causal relationships in the real world, but saying you can correct for the inputs with math.

What does this mean?

  • Demand absolute risk from research
  • Don't TRUST anybody's opinions, including paper summaries and conclusions
  • Look for established cause and effect statements
  • Examine metabolic context
  • Epidemiology should not be used for health decisions.

Why I don't find a list of 30 epidemiology studies compelling

I can provide opposing epidemiology, so it should cancel out right? The fact that one camp has produced a larger volume of analysis papers from the same observational datasets doesn't change the fact its epidemiology and cannot inform on cause and effect.

Why I don't find expert opinion compelling

I DEMAND to see the source studies the opinion is based on, and I will apply the same evaluation to that. If the expert opinion is based on a volume of cherry picked epidemiology then I don't think much of the expert opinion. This includes the WHO IARC.

You can prove I'm wrong?

Great! I welcome it. I know I'm wrong a lot, I admit this! Please send me the core scientific publication that shows me the contradiction, that isn't epidemiology, and ideally is a intervention in humans.

Why won't I engage with the next batch of papers you are sending?

There are some people who try to win discussions of science and reality with overwhelming paper references. You know the type, every message is 8 new references, they insult you in each message, and they even cast doubt you have read what your quoting.

These people will not engage with a discussion on a single paper, any good points you bring up don't further the conversation.. instead they pivot to yet a new batch of references. They don't see science as a finding of truth, but of a volume game. I half suspect these people only care about making it look like they won to observers who are not closely reading the discussion.

Needless to say they love epidemiology

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[–] TootSweet@lemmy.world 3 points 6 days ago (2 children)

So what has changed your mind sufficiently to get you to adopt any particular diet? (That still would today if you weren't already following the diet you're following and you had the same opinions about standards of evidence that you elaborated above?)

I have a good friend who got me into "the paleo diet" (which I put in quotes just because I'm not sure there are any two people on Earth today who would use/interpret the term quite the same way) who spoke similarly on standards of evidence in science, citing as examples studies wherein rabbits were force-fed meat or a whole pizza was counted as "meat" for having a single meat-based topping.

I remember asking him "yeah, but at some point you have to make the decision just what you're going to put in your mouth, what fitness routines you're going to follow and what you'll eschew, whether to supplement this or that nutrient. And a pile of scholarly studies that shouldn't be taken as evidence strong enough to consider changing your diet over won't help you decide what your diet or whatever should be at all. You've clearly made some decisions about your diet (unlike a lot of people who pay close to no attention to how healthy their diets are at all), so do you have a stack of better-quality studies that you've based your diet/fitness-related decisions on? Or perhaps are there individuals whose opinions you trust because you think they have a similarly high standard?" (He was... and honestly I also was... a big fan of Robb Wolf, for instance. I didn't consider myself as knowledgeable on matters of health and nutrition as this friend of mine, mind you. Which is largely why I was asking.)

I recall not really feeling like I got a straight answer. (He kindof put on a pained expression and said something like "yeah, you've got a point" and didn't say much more than that.)

I've been evolving my diet continually. I'm certain my diet is more strict in some ways than it was at that time and less strict in others. And I don't eat carnivore exactly. I do avoid grains (except white rice) and sugar like the plague, mind you. (Actually, sugar gives me really violent acute GI symptoms, surprisingly. I've never run across anyone else who admits to anything quite like it.) And I eat quite low-carb most of the time. I'm curious to get a sense of, if I were to try to make my diet more "evidence-based", just where I might pick up that thread, however.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

What has changed my mind recently?

I've recently read the research on the potato/rice/starch/mc Dougal/sugar diet and know they work, actually work. I was confused about how people lost so much weight on the potato diet, that isn't keto. Keto would say their insulin is too high to lose weight, and mitigate diabetes, etc

It's a fascinating rabbit hole - basically - The Randel cycle is a cross inhibition in cells that triggers when both glucose and fat are present at the same time, it causes massive amounts of inflammation. These diets all do the same thing in that they don't trigger the Randel cycle, which lowers inflammation.

Most of these diets are also very low protein diets, so they trigger the FGF-21 pathways and increase base metabolic rate by about 20%.

Sounds great! Why don't I do these diets even though I KNOW they work?

  • Glycation damage is still happening
  • Missing vital nutrition from protein
  • The people following these diets look sickly
  • ASF are more bioavailable
  • I don't want to have to fight cravings

What I find compelling today:

  • Human interventions with hard end points

Fat Loss, FLD reversal, muscle mass, longevity, CVD incidents

  • Reproduceable results in myself / others

I should be able to try the science myself, and see results, I should be able to talk to other people about results. Anyone who fails should be able to debug the results. Some places pillory people who fail as 'not trying hard enough', that is a strong indicator that the science is missing

On lemmy we have very nice people who share their results

I am a curious person, I asked if people in the PBF community would also share their results https://hackertalks.com/post/7026047 but basically got vibes only... not the rigor I would need to be compelled.

Robb Wolf is a good example of finding something better, but only having part of the answer, and iterating. Paleo is a improvement on SAD. Keto is a refinement of Paleo, figuring out all the intricate details (like honey in paleo isn't really great). This is why its important to keep a open mind, looking at new data, and not become stuck to a philosophy like a religion

What kind of people do I trust? Those that admit they don't know things, that are clear about the limitations of the sources they rely on. Full nuanced disclosure wins my heart.

  • Diet Doctor is a gold star example of how do inform on the limitations of current science and still put forward a opinion based on the sparce data we can trust now https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/skeptical-doctors Take a look at their site, every point has references, in the references they tell you the strengths of the references, what they don't say... full disclosure.

  • Dr Eric Westman is extremely good in disclosing what we know, don't know, and speculate on every single thing he says... I trust him completely because of that... however, I still read his sources!

Stack of better quality - Science - Papers - https://hackertalks.com/post/15415375

Why I choose carnivore - https://hackertalks.com/post/11881040

I'm Wrong - I know I'm wrong, I just don't about what. Right now I'm doing Carnivore, One Meal a Day, Daily Sauna, 3x weight training a week. As I get more data, and see interventions that have measurable outcomes, I'll modify and adapt.

Current Vexing Questions about diet:

  • How much protein per meal
  • Do we need insulin spikes for optimal health
  • Optimal eating time window
  • Is OMAD Good?
  • Should multi-day fasts be part of a optimal diet?

I get frustrated with the current debates on philosophy, never about the fun open questions above. Boiling down most of the lemmy debates you get 'Hey, you might live 4-6 days longer if you give up all meat based on epidemiology that doesn't control for metabolism and has heavy healthy user bias' the number needed to treat is insane, and its kind of a broken record. Honestly - Talking about epidemiology is holding us all back in the 1950s, there are far better uses of our time, and better questions we should be asking of health.

What are your metrics for success? Are you achieving those with what your doing?

  • Fat % / Body Composition
  • Blood Pressure
  • TG/HDL (insulin sensitivity)
  • Plaque progression (CAC imaging)
  • Aches / Pains

If you found something good enough (like your current low carb approach), that is fine. If you are curious, you can try other approaches for 30 days (strict keto, pure carnivore, fasting), and see if your metrics improve. Stay curious!

[–] xep@discuss.online 3 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

I can only speak from my own experience, but self-experimentation was a part of it, as well as reading science that isn't just nutrition science. For example, we know that plants contain toxins, since it's a fact. We know that thermally stressing PUFAs results in various oxidation end products, again because this is a fact. We know that ultraprocessed foods are by and large made up of plant matter. In that case it would make sense that if the hypothesis for carnivore is that I wouldn't need any plant matter in my diet, then I could avoid all these things. I decided to test that by doing an experiment on myself to see if that's true that I could just not eat any food derived from plants for a while.

At the time I was already on a LCHF whole food diet with moderately high fat so I knew I could switch slowly without affecting my gut too much, but to be safe, I had blood panels done and informed my friends that they should tell me if I looked even vaguely sick in that period of time. I was also not going through any stressful events other than this, so I would be able to minimize other confounding effects caused by hormonal changes.

My results were that I was informed by the same friends that I looked the best I'd ever been, I lost ~5 kgs of body weight (unfortunately only BIA and not DEXA scan, so I can only guess that it was mostly fat/water) and that my HDL went up, but it went up alongside my LDL levels. My sleep quality improved and my stiff shoulder resolved.

The most obvious and easiest test for me I think would be fiber and constipation. You can try that self experiment easily in 30 days, I don't think there's much danger there.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 6 days ago

Completely agree! But you are underselling it, you have AMAZING DATA that demonstrates multiple interventions in the same person over time.

xep's compelling data

2025/08/25 2025/07/22 2024/08/07 2023/08/25 2022/08/30
Notes Today Start of carnivore Start of LCHF Keto Start of no refined carbs, no sugars NAFLD, start of no sugar
Weight, Kg 59.1 63.6 66.9 76.3 78.2
BMI 19.4 20.8 22.1 25.0 25.6
Abdominal Girth/Height No data 0.43 0.49 0.49 0.54
LDL, mg/dl 212 183 107 152 149
HDL, mg/dl 66 63 61 55 48
Triglycerides, mg/dl 98 66 58 112 181

TG/HDL ratios over time (lower is better)

  • 1.48 - 2025-08-25 - 1 month carnivore
  • 1.05 - 2025-07-22 - ~1 year keto
  • 0.78 - 2024-08-07 - ~1 year no sugar + no refined carbs (whole food?)
  • 2.03 - 2023-08-25 - ~1 year no sugar
  • 3.77 - 2022-08-30 - Baseline eating pattern before changing anything

Weight Change over Time

  • 1 month carnivore : -4.5kg/month
  • 1 year keto: -0.28kg/month
  • 1 year no sugar + no carbs: -0.78kg/month
  • 1 year no sugar : -0.15kg/month
[–] xep@discuss.online 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

moved post to respond to the right comment

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

A real life example:Let's examine: https://lemmy.world/post/19146720

  1. [Opinion][Expired 2021, not renewed] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/
  2. [Comparison against SAD] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6742661/
  3. [Epidemiology] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6301673/
  4. [Epidemiology] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26853923/
  5. [Epidemiology] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9899747/
  6. [Opinion] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6124841/
  7. [Epidemiology][Intermediate end-points]https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5914369/
  8. [Opinion] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7550896/
  9. [Opinion] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10386413/
  10. [Epidemiology] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5914369/
  11. [Epidemiology] https://nutrition.bmj.com/content/4/1/257
  12. [Comparison against SAD][Intermediate end-points]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36986240/
  13. [Opinion] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9750928/
  14. [Comparison against SAD]https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9540559/
  15. [Comparison against SAD][Somehow Mediterranean is considered plant based for this review WTF?!?!?]https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10224875/
  16. Dead link, retracted? https://www.jrnjournal.org/article/S1051-2276/(19/)30026-3/fulltext
  17. [Comparison against SAD][Intermediate end-points]https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7730154/
  18. [Opinion] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6855948/
  19. [Comparison against SAD]https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37869973/
  20. [Epidemiology] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10548756/
  21. [Comparison against SAD]https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11095673/
  22. [Epidemiology] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6759882/
  23. [Epidemiology] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6646993/
  24. [Epidemiology] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10652524/
  25. [Opinion] https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC4991921/
  26. [Opinion] https://www.jandonline.org/article/S2212-2672(25)00042-5/fulltext

Of these 25 sources, I think number 15 is probably the most interesting, I need to dig into that one and figure out what the hell is going on, but the other 24 publications are not compelling to me and my nutritional pattern at all.

  • 8 Opinions
  • 10 Epidemiology
  • 6 SAD

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against this eating pattern for people who choose it, but these publications are not compelling for me to choose it.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

Did I miss anything? How does it look? I think I've written out the internal priority tree that I use when reading papers and this is really what I find compelling.

How can I do carnivore without compelling meta-analysis of RCTs in humans? Isn't that a contradiction?

Why is the default assumption against carnivore? Why do I need to prove its safe? Why can't I rely on the published literature to tell me what is dangerous? All the bogie men used against carnivore are laid bare in today's literature... So no literature demonstrates meat is dangerous, much literature demonstrates ketogenic metabolism is optimal, some literature shows that plants can cause problems... the intersection of these points gives me carnivore as a viable model, and I dare say optimal.

Most compellingly I can see the immediate results in myself after only a few weeks of doing it. The ultimate home science, I can verify.

[–] xep@discuss.online 2 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)
  • Why I don’t find expert opinion compelling

I DEMAND to see the source studies the opinion is based on, and I will apply the same evaluation to that. If the expert opinion is based on a volume of cherry picked epidemiology then I don’t think much of the expert opinion. This includes the WHO IARC.

You’re being very nice by not mentioning that many experts are bought and paid for by corporate interests. It’s important to look at who the experts are and what organizations they’ve done the studies or are speaking for in the context of the larger, more influential organizations that they are associated with in any way.

[–] jet@hackertalks.com 2 points 6 days ago

You are absolutely right, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and say they probably believe their message, and and on the publish or perish treadmill and cranking out yet another epidemiology "grilling the data" low effort paper is them responding to their local incentives.

The current situation is so insidious