this post was submitted on 05 Aug 2025
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There were some good replies in there, but mostly I thought it was disappointing. I guess it's probably fine to just tell someone to fuck off because it's a community management issue, but I think it's good to try to have some engagement with arguments to both understand your own positions and to be ready to refute things when it actually matters. I tried responding, but in the time it took me to write something, the thread was deleted.

You probably won't find this compelling, but I think that it's good in cases where someone seems sincere and shares several of our values that at least a little effort is made to re-educate them. It's simply to our advantage for more people to agree with us. The OP was antisemitic, but it got worse in the comments, where they assigned collective guilt to Jews in general because there were a number of Jewish Nazi collaborators before the Nazis really started with the Holocaust. I think this is a stronger indication that the poster was unsalveagable as far as a forum is concerned, because I think they are just motivated by a seething resentment of Jews, but I'm curious how they would respond to the self-evident charge of them assigning collective guilt to an ethnicity, something that is really fucked.

Anyway, I don't mean this as an indictment of people who aren't the aforementioned antisemite, I just wanted to mention a thought I had and also make my comment from before:

useless comment

Why are you still centering the "uncomfortable" feelings of a group that overwhelmingly supports genocide?

This is a deranged argument that, on its own, merits your banning. The popularity of Zionism among Jews does not negate the question of ethnic discrimination, and the logic that you are using here could easily be pogromism. "Why aren't we taking violent action against a group that overwhelmingly supports genocide? Never mind that the "group" being talked about isn't a coherent political entity or even a coherent community, but an ethnic group!" Also, even if we counterfactually said that directing antisemitism against zios is okay (it is not!), there are still many Jews who closely identify with their Jewishness and are ardent anti-zionists!

Because you're using an inversion of a common zionist argument, let me use the inversion of its counter: The vast majority of people who are uncomfortable with the burning of a Star of David are not Jewish, and I'm willing to bet that the majority aren't Zionists either (or they at least oppose the genocide but may or may not understand that it's the inevitable expression of what Israel is). A lot of people object to the inciting of ethnic hatred, and you yourself recognize that the Star of David is different in this respect from a cross, because you single out Jews as an ethnicity to tar and trample on, but when discussing the burning of St. George's cross on the English flag, you relate us to the KKK because of their burning crosses in front of black churches (etc.). Those two things (England's flag and KKK rituals) have nothing to do with each other and are just superficially connected by the floating signifier of the cross, with no specific connection to something like an ethnicity because it is being extended very cross-ethnically (pun not intended), and hypothetically also applies to Arab Christians, to LatAm Christians, and so on. Regardless, around the world in many different countries, many people object to inciting ethnic hatred and they also object to genocide, e.g. in China, so the idea that the objectors are all Jews is completely false.

Also obviously this shit gets used as a cover for antisemitism, like in your case as you reveal by assigning collective guilt to Jews because like 70% of them according to some polls support Israel, as though that means the other 30% are chaff! (Never mind the other problems with this logic)

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[–] Z_Poster365@hexbear.net 51 points 2 days ago (1 children)
[–] smokeppb@hexbear.net 22 points 2 days ago
[–] smokeppb@hexbear.net 64 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Not having a true israel-cool emoji is basically conceding the point to Zionists that they and their flag is a proper representation of Judaism. I don't get the hangup when we know the context of what we ourselves are doing.

[–] purpleworm@hexbear.net 27 points 2 days ago (5 children)

Communication isn't just about intention, it is also about reception, and the imagery of ritually burning a Star of David -- regardless of the context -- is a rhetorical hazard. Obviously if you're blowing up a Merkava, no one is saying you're doing a hate crime by incinerating a Star of David that the IDF painted on it, but if you're dragging out ritual symbols to destroy as effigies, then including the Star is undesirable. That in no way concedes that Israel is a proper representation of Judaism. The symbol is appropriated, and like any appropriated symbol, the real concession is treating it merely as a symbol of the appropriator.

[–] smokeppb@hexbear.net 35 points 2 days ago (2 children)

This is the most embarrassing lib-left tut-tutting I've ever received.

but if you're dragging out ritual symbols to destroy as effigies, then including the Star is undesirable.

The flag itself has the symbol in it. I and others know the difference between just burning a Star of David and burning the Israeli flag. Thinking otherwise is reactionary, like believing you'll make God angry by deposing Tsar Nicholas, that the Tsar truly represents The Lord's command for him to rule over Russia. It's just wacky.

So tell me, Will you be tut-tutting the Iranians next?

How about cancelling these Palestinians too? They included the symbol, tell 'em off! Fuck em! Someone from the ADL should tell Johnathan Greenblatt that it was this easy to bring the left in line all along, just show them what the real 3rd world practices.

[–] purpleworm@hexbear.net 19 points 2 days ago (10 children)

This is a pathetic argument and you should feel embarrassed that you feel the need to resort to such a profound level of bad faith.

The flag itself has the symbol in it. I and others know the difference between just burning a Star of David and burning the Israeli flag. Thinking otherwise is reactionary, like believing you'll make God angry by deposing Tsar Nicholas, that the Tsar truly represents The Lord's command for him to rule over Russia. It's just wacky.

I specifically, explicitly said that destroying actual politically meaningful things with the Star of David on it is a different story, and made no reference to politics being constrained by religious doctrine. Even if it was explicitly allowed in Judaism to treat whatever symbol like garbage, I would have the same position, because the point is not that there is blasphemy involved but the nature of what is being communicated as a political message. I furthermore hope that you can understand that if I said you can blow up a tank with the Star on it (obviously), then I wouldn't object to deposing a theocrat.

So tell me, Will you be tut-tutting the Iranians next?

Surely you agree that "A curse upon the Jews" is a bad thing to say, something we should disallow, but that doesn't mean the Houthi pirates haven't been engaging in heroic actions and deserve support. I won't be ""tut-tutting"" the Iranians because I have no voice to speak to them, very little shared understanding and reference, and no connection to them. Who would listen to me? Why would they listen to me? Not one of them will ever ask me, so I don't really have a reason to speak with them. I still believe the practice is wrong, but I also believe that they should obtain nuclear weaponry as quickly as possible and defend their sovereignty from the zionist menace

How about cancelling these Palestinians too? They included the symbol, tell 'em off! Fuck em! Someone from the ADL should tell Johnathan Greenblatt that it was this easy to bring the left in line all along, just show them what the real 3rd world practices.

Seriously, how pathetic do you have to be to resort to the idea of "canceling"? I have made no judgement about the people who promote these symbols -- even here! (aside from mentioning that a small minority would inevitably be fash) -- and have said literally nothing at all about casting out such people or refusing to work with them, because I don't believe that such people should be cast out over this offshoot aspect of a symbolic gesture when they are materially fighting for liberation. I am arguing that a symbol should not be promoted on platforms where we actually have the ability to decide such matters -- and, you know, aren't preoccupied with fighting for our fucking lives in active military conflict.

[–] smokeppb@hexbear.net 19 points 2 days ago (1 children)

I specifically, explicitly said that destroying actual politically meaningful things with the Star of David on it is a different story, and made no reference to politics being constrained by religious doctrine. Even if it was explicitly allowed in Judaism to treat whatever symbol like garbage, I would have the same position, because the point is not that there is blasphemy involved but the nature of what is being communicated as a political message. I furthermore hope that you can understand that if I said you can blow up a tank with the Star on it (obviously), then I wouldn't object to deposing a theocrat.

We're clearly in agreement then. I only want an emoji to burn the Israeli flag. Not the Star of David which happens to be on the flag.

Surely you agree that "A curse upon the Jews" is a bad thing to say, something we should disallow, but that doesn't mean the Houthi pirates haven't been engaging in heroic actions and deserve support.

Again, in agreement. But there is nuance. Take the slogan "there is only one solution, Intifada revolution" that is a little more ambiguous. If I was to believe what you said: "communication is about intention and reception" then we should be getting rid of this slogan, no? It's not being received well. No one knows what an Intifada is in the west and thinks it means something like a Jihad. It's a pain in the neck correcting people, but I do it anyway. Because it's what the Palestinians want to say.

Seriously, how pathetic do you have to be to resort to the idea of "canceling"?

It's annoying how often it comes up, but you have to admit it's staying power throughout the decades in the forms of "PC" and such has to mean something. ADL and Canary mission wouldn't be given loads of resources to root out resistance if it didn't do anything. That's why I and Norman Finklestein (who also had issues with the "there is only one solution, Intifada revolution" until corrected by a nearby protester, IIRC) talk about cancelling.

You see, this backing off of strong rhetorical positions of support to move to weaker ones is exactly how we get weaker figureheads in the Left, ones that don't fully back a Palestinian state until its too late like Bernie (or i guess he's a downright Zio now I honestly haven't been following him), or ones that are forced to say in interviews "Israel has a right to exist, but here's a catch" like Mamdani. Soft Language is the first domino that leads to a lack of commitment to strong positions that the general public supports.

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[–] glimmer_twin@hexbear.net 38 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Look I ain’t gonna read all this thread and I have no idea what drama y’all are referring to, but it isn’t antisemitic to burn a flag (or for gods sake an emoji of a flag) of a genocidal nation state because it happens to have a religious symbol on it.

Countless flags around the world have religious symbology. If Scotland was doing a genocide could I not burn their flag because it has St Andrews cross on it? Would it be anti-Christian? There are plenty of “Islamic” countries with crescents on their flag, if they were committing genocide would it be islamophobic to burn their flag? Gimme a fucking break.

This liberal hand wringing conflation of Judaism with a genocidal nation state is playing into the hands of the Zionists, and is actually antisemitic tbqh.

[–] purpleworm@hexbear.net 10 points 2 days ago

I never said it was antisemitic to burn the Israeli flag, did I? As I keep needing to explain to people, I'm not making a statement about your personal character, I don't give a shit about that. Communication is not just what you feel in your heart (that's called thinking), but also how you transmit that message, which necessarily involves how it is received. My argument, well, most of my arguments were simply that the OOP's arguments were dogshit and antisemitic (see the collapsed section), but my argument on the overall issue is simply that it's better to not personally participate in burning Stars of David when you're doing whatever political ceremonies you burn things at. It observably bothers some antizionist Jews and other antizionists and uneducated people too, and it isn't especially useful because it's just a generic political gesture that we can replace with another one. Flag-burning is not a platform.

This liberal hand wringing conflation of Judaism with a genocidal nation state is playing into the hands of the Zionists, and is actually antisemitic tbqh.

Go fuck yourself

[–] Babs@hexbear.net 48 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (2 children)

If it was actually about having a burning Israeli flag emoji, there could probably be a pretty interesting discussion with actual points being made. The last discussion about it happened in a very different context at a different point in the genocide, and I'm sure the average hexbear now has a much more negative opinion of Israel and Israelis as a whole (not just the IDF or Lehi or whatever).

But that's not what this was. She didn't take long at all to accuse Jews of starting the Holocaust. It was just antisemitism and she couldn't keep her mask on for even a couple hours.

[–] OnceUponATimeInWeHo@hexbear.net 39 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

It was never about the state of Israel or the site’s opinions, it’s about a mod’s feelings on a burning Star of David (even when contained in the genocide flag). Entirely separate, this was an obvious Nazi and not at all representative of the site’s wider attitude

[–] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 27 points 2 days ago

Yeah, it's always been pretty clear here (even before Oct 7th) that burning the Israeli flag, by itself, is cool and good. The issue has always been turning it into an emoji, on one hand because of the person in charge, and on the other because of the decontextualization that comes with the emoji.

[–] Edie@hexbear.net 24 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Misgendering. Pronouns were [comrade/them, she/her]

[–] Babs@hexbear.net 18 points 2 days ago

Ah shit my bad. Editing.

[–] ColombianLenin@hexbear.net 46 points 2 days ago (1 children)

What's sad about this discussion is that this is precisely the issue that the Zionists want, to conflate Judaism with Zionism, and that's why they chose that flag.

[–] Z_Poster365@hexbear.net 24 points 2 days ago

And banning the emote is letting the Zionists win

[–] FourteenEyes@hexbear.net 42 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (7 children)

guys I don't like Christianity so let's have a burning cross emoji, I'm sure it has no other meaning

[–] ColombianLenin@hexbear.net 15 points 2 days ago (9 children)

Is there a settler colony whose flag is a cross?

[–] CommunistBear@hexbear.net 26 points 2 days ago

england-cool was the reference used in the OOP

[–] Edie@hexbear.net 11 points 2 days ago (2 children)

Is Australia a settler colony? It contains one.

[–] purpleworm@hexbear.net 23 points 2 days ago

Australia is absolutely a settler-colony

[–] ZWQbpkzl@hexbear.net 16 points 2 days ago

It is the definition of a settler colony along with the US and Canada.

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[–] MiraculousMM@hexbear.net 36 points 2 days ago (6 children)

This anti-semite was not engaging in good faith whatsoever, I don't think we need to pay them much mind. Also clearly a long time site user with an axe to grind hiding behind an alt like a coward.

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[–] Damarcusart@hexbear.net 38 points 2 days ago (2 children)

I originally wrote a semi-effort post in an attempt to explain things, then recognised it would be largely a waste of time to talk to an anti-semite, they weren't interested in learning or behaving, they were interested in inciting blind hatred against Jews, and were doing a poor job of hiding it. I'm not going to waste my time talking to someone who has no interest in listening and only wants people to agree with them about the untermensch.

Sometimes there is time for proper effort posts, and sometimes we should just point and laugh at a wrecker doing probably the worst job I've ever seen of hiding their fascist tendencies.

[–] BeamBrain@hexbear.net 29 points 2 days ago

it would be largely a waste of time to talk to an anti-semite, they weren't interested in learning or behaving, they were interested in inciting blind hatred against Jews

sartre-pipe

[–] purpleworm@hexbear.net 19 points 2 days ago (3 children)

That's fair, like I said I think telling them to fuck off is reasonable from a practical standpoint, though perhaps a simple "You're assigning collective guilt to Jews" preceding the "fuck off" might help especially uneducated onlookers understand why the person should mainly just be told to fuck off.

[–] red_stapler@hexbear.net 24 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

As an uneducated onlooker I do appreciate a good here’s a simple why ahead of a fuck off!

[–] Damarcusart@hexbear.net 21 points 2 days ago (1 children)

To be fair to them, they hadn't gotten to the point of blaming Jews for the holocaust when I told them to fuck off, they were just using very "us or them" rhetoric with "you have to let me say and do horrible things or else the enemy will win!"

I did explain the situation initially and they more or less ignored me to argue against an imaginary point no one was making, so I changed my mind halfway through writing an explanation.

I will admit I jumped the gun a bit, you're right that an explanation with an added "fuck off" would've been better than just telling them to fuck off.

[–] purpleworm@hexbear.net 11 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

To be clear, the point you mention of collectively blaming Jews collectively for some Jews being Nazi collaborators was only mentioned later, but they did assign collective guilt in the OP by saying Jewish opinions don't matter because "most of them support genocide" (in this case in Gaza). I quoted where they did that in the "useless comment" section of my OP.

But yeah, we agree on the actual issue, though I think you did fine with the argument that you did present before rightfully just telling them to fuck off.

[–] SacredExcrement@hexbear.net 16 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

There were people who did that. The poster responded with condescending derision.

[–] Nakoichi@hexbear.net 26 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Yeah there are a few folks on here that have been treading way over the line into actual antisemitism.

[–] BeamBrain@hexbear.net 28 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Name and shame, please (assuming they haven't all been banned)

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[–] Damarcusart@hexbear.net 26 points 2 days ago (2 children)

This one was just a flat out fascist wrecker trying to infiltrate. No idea why they show their whole ass a day after they sign up and quickly get banned, I keep telling them they should lay low, learn about site culture so they can fit in and slowly normalise toxic ideas, but they never listen to me.

[–] ratboy@hexbear.net 35 points 2 days ago

With their username relating to an inside joke on the site, I reckon that they are most likely an old user with a new account, or have been doing just as you say

[–] Hermes@hexbear.net 16 points 2 days ago

At least the ACP(M) guy took a few days to get banned so everyone could join in on the insults, this one didn't even last long enough for me to notice the post.

[–] Infamousblt@hexbear.net 21 points 2 days ago

Historical context but only when it's convenient for me, basically

[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 18 points 2 days ago (1 children)

Uphold the Steel Standard.

National and racial chauvinism is a vestige of the misanthropic customs characteristic of the period of cannibalism. Anti-semitism, as an extreme form of racial chauvinism, is the most dangerous vestige of cannibalism.

Anti-semitism is of advantage to the exploiters as a lightning conductor that deflects the blows aimed by the working people at capitalism. Anti-semitism is dangerous for the working people as being a false path that leads them off the right road and lands them in the jungle. Hence Communists, as consistent internationalists, cannot but be irreconcilable, sworn enemies of anti-semitism.

In the U.S.S.R. anti-semitism is punishable with the utmost severity of the law as a phenomenon deeply hostile to the Soviet system. Under U.S.S.R. law active anti-semites are liable to the death penalty.

[–] smokeppb@hexbear.net 12 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago) (1 children)

I don't really care what the other asshole in the other post said, go ahead and ban them. Seems like a wrecker account anyway. But ADL talking points about burning a Zionist rag do not constitute Antisemitism.

[–] Alaskaball@hexbear.net 10 points 2 days ago (1 children)
[–] smokeppb@hexbear.net 8 points 2 days ago
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