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I'm so tired of online "communists" (lemmygrad.ml)
submitted 1 week ago by CriticalResist8@lemmygrad.ml to c/comradeship@lemmygrad.ml
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oh wow another hoi4 twitch streamer. how novel. I'm so tired of these grifters that make a "job" out of making "ermmm akshually" dunking and reaction videos between two sessions of whatever paradox game.

Yeah bro you dunked on an online reactionary good on you. There are protestors being killed by police in Kenya but it's vitally important that you post about this youtube guy sure.

The moment you make money from your streaming stop calling yourself a communist or divide the two completely. One side of you is a communist, the other is a streamer. You simply cannot reconcile making money from this, because you will self-censor yourself very quickly in order to chase more money.

But this isn't even about the money aspect. I'm so tired of online "communists" in general. Lemmygrad and PW are the only reasonable places left. Prior to 2020 I learned a lot online in those spaces but now it's just devolving into a flanderization of itself. It's all about the post-irony "ermm what did he mean by this??" types of posts that even the OP doesn't know what they mean by it, they just wanted to post. You make your own meaning because they're on 5 levels of irony and clearly saying their point would cancel at least 4 of those layers and we can't have that. It's a contest to be the cleverest smartass all the time.

And when you point people to fully-owned spaces like the aforementioned, they don't want to join. They keep getting banned and driven off the lib platforms but they want to stay there. One argument is that the people are there, sure, but nothing is forcing them to exclusively use one platform. Imo they just want either the money and the fans.

They don't want to be part of a collective platform because that entails work, and rules, and giving up your name to an extent. It pays more to be doing their own thing.

It's very individualizing. People start getting followings of fans that will defend them just because they like them. You see that any time one of these guys gets called out for being a sex pest. Thus instead of building a movement they are building a cult. If what you're doing ends up being a Logan Paul then you're not really doing communism.

A ton of maoists and ultras too on social media, and very vocal too. They don't know what they're saying either, just like the rest. Before the internet these are people who would have thought "gosh maybe if I'm the only one that thinks like this I might be wrong". Now they find each other and they get to stroke their brain to Bordiga all day long on their armchair. Then once in a while post something that a trotskyist would say (but still claim they're not trots).

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[–] burlemarx@lemmygrad.ml 33 points 1 week ago (2 children)

We are all online communists, you know... So I'm not going to throw a rock when my roof is made of glass.

I think having an online presence is essential in this day and age. It frustrates me some orgs that are still very attached to printed newspapers that nobody will read.

On the other hand, communication in any medium requires a good strategy and the proper tactics. Many YouTubers are there just to make a living of communist entertainment, and that's good if they are doing what they like. However, this kind of isolated effort won't do much to our cause because the scope of the work is very limited.

[–] Bronstein_Tardigrade@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Actually, aren't a lot of local communist organizations returning to printed flyers and news letters finding that people still like the tactile feel of paper in hand?

[–] burlemarx@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Nothing is wrong with printed flyers or even printed medium. What I mean is that some orgs become too attached to the form itself, instead of thinking in strategical and tactical terms.

When Lenin proposed creating a nation wide newspaper, he was also proposing creating a logistical network along the entirety of Russia that could be used for the newspaper itself (propaganda and agitation), but could also be used as an information hub and a means of smuggling other things, like weapons and ammunition.

But all comes down to have the right strategy. Fanon's org in Algeria used radio to spread propaganda. In the Cuban Revolution , the guerrilla used radio and reporters (but also stablished contact with other local orgs).

Edit: No revolution will come from copying Russian Revolution tactics and aesthetics. You need to understand how society works today, what are the habits, what are the contradictions, for then to come up with the right strategy and tactics. And communication is a very important part of it.

[–] Maeve@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 1 week ago

Catastrophic storms can take out pretty much any communication but radio and print afaik, and not many are interested in ham radio anymore.

[–] ButtBidet@hexbear.net 25 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I agree with most of what you're saying. I think that "online communism" can be a good starting point for people, as it was for me. But as one develops, there's less and less that can be learned from videos and online forums.

No disrespect to any streamer, but even the ones I respect (The Deprogram, Richard Wolfe, or Democracy Comes Home), I hardly watch them because I don't feel like I'm learning anything. But I am grateful for where they brought me.

I guess online communities are good for an alternative community. I keep Hexbear as it keeps me from proprietary social media. But I don't have much hopes for it beyond entertainment and a few small good things it has. I think the second that the Fediverse becomes dangerous to capital, they'll find a way to shut us down.

People start getting followings of fans that will defend them just because they like them.

Ya it's super sad. I recommend staying clear of all that drama, if possible.

[–] CriticalResist8@lemmygrad.ml 19 points 1 week ago

My litmus test for impactful 'content' is if I remember it a week later. Sometimes I do, a lot of the time I don't.

[–] redchert@lemmygrad.ml 22 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Word. Idk who said it but someone called these people parasocialist and its true. I occasionally listen to some of the more popular “”influencers”” on the left and most people just parrot the points they bring up. Cant even read theory to create your own thoughts.

[–] CriticalResist8@lemmygrad.ml 20 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I need to upload theory in my native tongue so I can read it on the new prolewiki reading mode and get back into it lol. But a lot of what I come to comes from struggling about an issue with others. The correct line is created collectively. Watching or even reading someone preaching about their point of view is not theory, and you see this especially on twitter because of the character limit. "Um actually this is bad" like okay, explain then? but they won't. It makes it hard to know what to actually believe and trust.

Struggle sessions are not dogpiles, they're for finding truth from facts.

[–] redchert@lemmygrad.ml 21 points 1 week ago

The last part is poignant. Struggle sessions are supposed to led to introspective and leaning. Not “hot takes” and “gotcha” meant to increase social capital “prestige” for those with the “right ideas”.

Lowkey Prolewiki is kinda bare. Especially the african states are kinda meh. Maybe I will try on working on that.

[–] King_Simp@lemmygrad.ml 22 points 1 week ago

How many HOI4 streamers are communists? Not that the post in general is incorrect, just that I have an entirely different perception of Paradox streamers. I mean in my experience sutting through these videos are an exercise in patience considering their jokes can often boil down to "uh oh Stalin/Mao gonna throw me in Gulag with large spoon blah blah blah"

[–] 201dberg@lemmygrad.ml 18 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I was going to make a short little quip and agree about a few things, but like a good communist, I started really analyzing the shit out of my own thoughts and feelings about "influencers" and internet discourse. And then typed it out as I thought about it. Lol. Just a warning I get a little long winded and rambly.

spoiler

I agree with a lot of this and get where you are coming from. There are a lot of trash tier “Left” wing channels popping up, but honestly, after thinking about it, the only ones I really complain about are the obvious psyops shit and other fake left, libshit types, and the “purity test”ers that just want to be divisive (although a lot of those probably fall into the first category). I feel we need less low effort shit but we do need MORE influencers in general that are all doing the same, or similar, communist influencing. I mean, decently put together content. Idc if 10, 20 other communist podcasters are talking about the same anti-capitalist stuff. The more “quality” voices, the better. This not only helps prevent the “cult” like mentality but also helps fight the reactionary bullshit. If there's only a handful of “good ones” and one turns out to be a turd, people will stay because there’s not that many other options. If there’s a dozen or more other options though? If because of those options, people don;t feel like they have an allegiance to one, or a few figures?

Then there's the reactionary influencers we have to deal with.. We NEED people online to combat them. The simple truth is, people don’t go outside. Hell, in the west there's barely anyplace TO go. SO people sit at home and watch media on their phones, and people want their “slop.” People want content. They CRAVE content. Because they don’t want to FEEL alone, but our society promotes individualism. It all but forces it. If we want to grow our own movements and actually get people outside we need influencers and we need voices so people don’t feel like they are alone in their beliefs.

Movements don;t grow without voices and they don't grow by retreating from the greater online spaces. They grow by influencing them. The right is out there throwing cash at any POS willing to spew their propaganda. And it's working. That shits everywhere and it doesn't just make more fascists, it is encouraging the existing ones. Making them feel less isolated, and emboldening them to go out and do fascist shit. People are way less likely to do that when they feel alone and isolated. The more voices we have pushing back against them, and the more we have giving a general feel of pro communist sentiment the better for us and worse for them.

As for why people don’t leave Rddit (I mean there's other sites but lets be real here, you meant rddit)), simply put, there is more content there. As said before, people crave content. They crave interaction. Lemmygrad is wonderful. I love it here, but I still go to reddit. Why? Cause I see a wider range of news and viewpoints even though I do stick to the mostly left subs and stay out of mainstream subs. There’s more posters and more news getting shared. There are fewer true communist subreddits but more commenters, and I have seen some subs grow from being more radlib to leaning much harder communist. It's good to see. And its good to keep influencing. Which leads into another point.

As long as I'm there, I have the opportunity to actually tell people about lemmygrad. The average person, or new baby communist, isn't going to know about lemmy, but damn near everyone knows about reddit to some degree. If we want people to come to lemmy we have to not only tell them about it but try and push them here. So, I wont retreat from reddit just because there are libs there. I think using both sites is the best approach. We need to make reddit commy subs a pipeline to lemmy. Not cut it off. So i wont give people crap for using reddit… IF the still come by lemmy more because, to be blunt here, we tend to lack engagement a lot. Posts with 50 upvotes are considered pretty high here and you won’t see a single comment. It feels dead here sometimes.

As for making money off their streams or podcasts…. Honestly, the grifters are gonna grift. But we also have to realize that good content takes time and planning… and money. If we attack every person for trying to get funding to produce GOOD communist content, we won’t have any.

And I wanna follow all this up with, I'm not saying give up on going outside and talking to people, or to not go to protests or whatever, and to just sit online and argue with libs and bots. I'm just saying, like it or not it's here, it's staying, and if we want to influenced and grow the movement, we are going to have to use it and suffer in it.

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 1 week ago (2 children)

The more “quality” voices, the better. This not only helps prevent the “cult” like mentality but also helps fight the reactionary bullshit.

A very good argument. One of the drivers of parasocial attachment to online leftist content creators is there are comparatively quite few so people develop an unhealthy defensiveness about the ones that do exist. This is not good for anyone.

If we want to grow our own movements and actually get people outside we need influencers and we need voices so people don’t feel like they are alone in their beliefs. Movements don't grow without voices and they don't grow by retreating from the greater online spaces.

Absolutely. It does nothing for our cause as communists to retreat into isolated spaces. That is how you become irrelevant, sectarian, and eventually shrink out of existence. It may feel good and comfortable to distance yourself from everything and everyone who isn't "pure" enough but it is totally counterproductive.

The average person, or new baby communist, isn't going to know about lemmy, but damn near everyone knows about reddit to some degree. If we want people to come to lemmy we have to not only tell them about it but try and push them here.

As much as i dislike reddit i also have to agree with this. We certainly need to have our own spaces like lemmy, but communists should always also go to where the masses are. Even if it's hard, even if it's uncomfortable. This applies both online and offline.

[–] rainpizza@lemmygrad.ml 14 points 1 week ago (1 children)

As much as i dislike reddit i also have to agree with this. We certainly need to have our own spaces like lemmy, but communists should always also go to where the masses are. Even if it’s hard, even if it’s uncomfortable. This applies both online and offline.

For the Global North, your comments make sense and it is still important to keep a presence in imperialist dominated spaces. However, for the Global South, that strategy is no longer working and the demand for an alternative to Facebook, Instagram, Whatsapp, X, Reddit, et al in the playing field grew radically.

For what I have seen as an example of this, the growth of usage for Telegram from Cuba/Nicaragua/Venezuela was intense due to the constant bans on anti imperialist voices to the point that even Maduro asked people to opt out of Whatsapp to use Telegram and WeChat.

If Cubans with the aid of China and Russia(see the promising initiative of the tech hub) put an alternative out there to the yankee owned social networks, I am confident that people will flock there. From my perspective, comrades from the Global South like me have to push for this change. We need this change urgently so our marxist voices could flourish without any imperialist meddling.

[–] cfgaussian@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 1 week ago

True. Countries in the global south very much need to develop and use their own domestic alternatives to western tech and services, the way China has done. It is a matter of national security first and foremost.

[–] Maeve@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 week ago

CPUSA needs to consider rural poor outreach and accept volunteer hours in lieu of $20 plxkthxbai.

[–] materialanalysis1938@lemmygrad.ml 18 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I had to give up on Reddit after being on r/communism. I’m sure there are a lot of good users on that platform trying to find meaningful interaction with other communists, but holy shit, so much ideological purity.

[–] redchert@lemmygrad.ml 20 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Reddit was purged of communists starting with the closure of r/chapo and r/genzedong. What remains are those deemed non-threatening.

[–] rainpizza@lemmygrad.ml 8 points 1 week ago

A ton of maoists and ultras too on social media, and very vocal too.

I feel that this is also what imperialists wanted to accomplish by giving voice to people that will actively harm our movements and global solidarity.

They know that a maoist/ultra/trotskist will not change/endanger their bourgeois dominated status quo as much as what a Black Panther/anti imperialist//ML/et al have done because the former are easier to dismiss by the population while stirring the highly class conscious people into inactivity and irrelevancy.

There is a lot that can be done about this. However, strategies change depending if you are in the Global South or the Global North.

[–] plastic@lemmygrad.ml 7 points 1 week ago (2 children)

What can communist streamers/content creators do to improve on these issues? Trying to brainstorm a little bit. I was thinking for example, how streamers usually have an overlay or a info section that contains links to their other social media pages. Would it help to add links there to your personal PeerTube, or a Lemmy instance, etc? Like "twitch: [username], my youtube: [username], Lemmy: [@instance.ml]" so that maybe people will come in mid-stream and ask "what's a Lemmy?" "Good question, so I don't have my own reddit sub, but I'm part of Lemmy where..." Type of interactions. Or like "my videos are also on my peertube, if you prefer no ads, peertube is a video platform where...." If those examples make sense. Would that type of thing work to help increase engagement and awareness to federated media? I would love to hear opinions and other ideas on what to improve. Of course making good content people want to watch is the main priority, but what are the little things to add onto it? (I very rarely post so sorry if this comes off as jumbled/hard to read)

[–] redchert@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 1 week ago (1 children)

What can communist streamers/content creators do to improve on these issues?

They mean people like Hasan/Deprogram. Not like ml theory reading streams. The former have like a million strong audience and make "big bucks". the latter don't.

[–] materialanalysis1938@lemmygrad.ml 16 points 1 week ago (1 children)

I can’t hate on The Deprogram. They create podcasts that are engaging and perhaps most importantly provide a larger platform for a lot of smaller content creators.

Not saying we can’t be critical, we should be critical in a constructive way, but I do enjoy their content. Each of them also have quality, well-researched videos.

[–] Nibblesnarf@hexbear.net 13 points 1 week ago (1 children)

Yeah, I can get Hasan hate but hating on the Deprogram? Really? They are some of the most well read big name communist "influencers" out there. Any one of them alone has done more to spread communist ideals then this entire instance ever has. Let alone the people complaining about them. It's getting really close to ultra and purity testing attitudes. Gatekeeping online communism discourse by...going online and complaining about it. "Don't talk about Communism online unless you are the literal reincarnation of Marx."

Hell, the Deprogram subreddit is fully communist. I see the same kinds of posts here and there. Same kinds of memes. Same jokes. Same pro China sentiment. The only difference is, that subreddit, by itself, has more subscribers, gets more views, more conversation, and does more teaching to newbies than all of Lemmygrad.

[–] TechnoMaoist@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 week ago

An openly communist subreddit? Where have I seen this before...

In all seriousness, I'm glad to hear there's an ML sub. As others have mentioned, most others get banned or end up as left/right deviants.

[–] CriticalResist8@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago) (1 children)

They cannot take money first of all. None.

Secondly they must teach and encourage people to organize. No idea has ever come about from the loneliness of one's own room.

[–] Nibblesnarf@hexbear.net 11 points 1 week ago (1 children)

It makes no sense to demand that people both have well organized and well researched, "quality" content, and be entirely unpaid for it when doing so in a capitalist society. That gates basically everyone of lower income working class from ever making this kind of content. Working class people have jobs and lives and bills to pay. Making properly organized and quality media for people is a job on its own. If they take donations for it and still give their media out for everyone to see, how is that such a problem?

If it's low effort, and/or being turned into grift? Sure, fuck em, but sitting here and claiming that any and every content creator that takes donations is not a real communist is getting really close to "you support communism but have iPhone? Checkmate tankie" What else are we going to say communists can't do while forced to live in a capitalist system? I have a 401k and a stock account. I once made some money in my HSA from trading stocks. Am I not a communist now?

At this point we're the cutoff? Most communist organizations in capitalist societies, many of which also create media for their members, take dues. Are they no longer communists because they took dues to pay themselves for making the org their full time job?

[–] CriticalResist8@lemmygrad.ml 5 points 1 week ago

There's a huge difference between being a content creator and being a party. Not just one difference actually.

The online content creator will cater to making more money. The communist party, hopefully, will cater to existing and organizing.

It makes no sense to demand that people both have well organized and well researched, “quality” content, and be entirely unpaid for it when doing so in a capitalist society

It makes sense actually, and if they can't provide it then maybe they shouldn't do it. You're not gonna live on your 3 patreon supporters paying you 3$ each, you need an actual critical mass of supporters to turn it into a job. So what's the best way to get there? Start toeing the line to not getting banned from the platform (otherwise no money) and start diluting your politics so you have broader appeal. Start accepting a diluted community too, because they support you. And if they start asking you for custom content like talking about zohran mamdani because they like him then you'd be hard-pressed to refuse. Some will, some won't. Some will find it hard to take the hard stance they want to take on mamdani because they might lose a supporter if they do.

The only way this can end is wanting to become a contrapoints of their own, making a half-baked video once a year while raking in thousands on patreon.

Making properly organized and quality media for people is a job on its own. If they take donations for it and still give their media out for everyone to see, how is that such a problem?

Every prolewiki editor does this without taking donations, so do Red Sails and USU.

If your livelihood is assured in a certain way then it's in your interest to keep that certain way existing for as long as possible.

[–] big_spoon@lemmygrad.ml 6 points 1 week ago

i mean, i understand your point, but streaming (aka grifting central) is a good place to find entertainment, but no ideological integrity, maybe you can find some good takes, but those are drowned in the internet version of a medieval square (filled with beggars and merchants)