this post was submitted on 22 Feb 2025
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[–] hector@sh.itjust.works 12 points 12 hours ago

The problem with Web Standards is that they're so complete, broad and complex that it's very hard as an independent team to get started writing a browser.

You'd have so little daily active users compared to the titans products (Chromium, Gecko, WebKit) that even if you made something super good, it would still be hard to guarantee website compatibility without faking the user-agents.

There's also a lot of complexity involved in writing a sandbox for every instance of a website (tabs or iframe) and sharing information between multiple process. I don't know how they do it in Chrome, but in Firefox they have a whole specification language for that which compiles to C++.

You also have to recreate the DevTools and other tooling for developers to adopt your browser and for you to debug any issues with your DOM renderer...

I love how much the web has to offer nowadays with technologies like WebRTC, WebSocket, Blobs, GamePad API, modern CSS3 but it has also the effect of locking us down into a tiny ecosystem.

I really their should be legislation on what companies can do with their browser because they've become such an important piece of the internet so they should serve public good.

I don't know how to make it happen and I don't even know if it's a good idea when you consider the governance issues it would bring for open-source project.

I'm really passionate about this technology !

[–] merc@sh.itjust.works 10 points 12 hours ago (2 children)

Unfortunately, there are only 3 companies developing browsers right now: Google, Apple and Mozilla.

Apple's browsers are only available on Apple platforms. In fact, if you're on iOS you have no choice, you have to use Safari. Even browsers labelled as "Chrome" or "Firefox" are actually Safari under the hood on iOS. But, on any non Apple platform, you can't use Safari.

Google is an ad company, so they don't want to allow ad blockers on their browser. So, it's a matter of time before every kind of ad blocking is disabled for Chrome users.

Firefox is almost entirely funded by Google, so there's a limit as to what they can do without the funding getting cut off. They seem to be trying to find a way forward without Google, but the result, if anything is as bad as Google if not worse:

"investing in privacy-respecting advertising to grow new revenue in the near term; developing trustworthy, open source AI to ensure technical and product relevance in the mid term;"

https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/mozilla-leadership-growth-planning-updates/

All these other browser people like are basically reskinned versions of Chrome or Firefox. They have a handful of people working on them. To actually develop a modern browser you need a big team. A modern browser basically has to be an OS capable of running everything from a 3d game engine, to a word processor, to a full featured debugger.

It looks like it's only a matter of time before there will be 0 browsers capable of blocking ads, because the only two companies that make multi-platform browsers depend on ads for their revenue, and both of them will have enormous expenses because they're obsessed with stupid projects like AI.

[–] miridius@lemmy.world 6 points 10 hours ago

Apple has a conflict of interest too: they need to keep safari gimped so that users have to install apps instead of using PWAs, so that Apple can keep getting 30% of the app sales.

As a result, Safari is terrible and very far behind in standards. It's the new internet explorer.

[–] henfredemars@infosec.pub 2 points 12 hours ago (1 children)

It looks like it’s only a matter of time before there will be 0 browsers capable of blocking ads[.]

I don't know if I'd take it that far. Firefox and the Chrome engine are open source projects. Anyone can modify the browser to enable ad-blocking in some form if a user is sufficiently determined. Now, will it be possible to write and distribute a popular an effective adblocker under these conditions? It appears to be getting harder.

[–] merc@sh.itjust.works 3 points 12 hours ago

Firefox and the Chrome engine are open source projects. Anyone can modify the browser to enable ad-blocking in some form if a user is sufficiently determined.

Technically, sure. But, these are extremely complex software products, and it would be one hobbyist vs. an entire software division of a trillion dollar company who are determined to make sure you see ads.

[–] MapleEngineer@lemmy.world 33 points 22 hours ago (1 children)

I switched to Firefox the morning they disabled uBlock Origin.

[–] AngryRobot@lemmy.world 16 points 13 hours ago

I never left Firefox. It's a fantastic browser.

Meanwhile ublock origin works fine in Fennec/Firefox Android.

[–] P1nkman@lemmy.world 298 points 1 day ago (7 children)

If you're still using Chrome, do yourself a favour and install Firefox.

[–] nahostdeutschland@feddit.org 221 points 1 day ago (4 children)

Let's be honest: Everything that might be "worse" or "annoying" in Firefox for someone is not relevant in comparison to "no working adblocker available". A browser without adblock is unusable

[–] JohnDClay@sh.itjust.works 1 points 13 hours ago

I haven't actually found anything that doesn't work on Firefox on my personal computer. At work we also use Firefox, and some things don't work on it, but some things don't work on chrome or edge either, it's a hodge poge.

[–] miridius@lemmy.world -2 points 10 hours ago (2 children)

What a silly comment. Chrome has plenty of good ad blockers still.

[–] FauxLiving@lemmy.world 6 points 10 hours ago

"Is this water warming up, or is it just me? Nah, there's a cool spot over here, this is fine."

-Chrome users

[–] nahostdeutschland@feddit.org 5 points 10 hours ago

Yeah, because Manifest v3 is just being rolled out as described in the article.

[–] P1nkman@lemmy.world 57 points 1 day ago (4 children)

True, but if an adblocker no longer works on a specific browser, change your browser! I started using Netscape back in '94, and lost count on how many browsers I've tested and used in the past... Holy shit, 30+ years!!

[–] imvii@lemmy.ca 2 points 13 hours ago

Mosaic was awesome. Netscape 1 was pretty cool, but Netscape 2 and animated gifs... zowie! That was a day to remember.

[–] Sturgist@lemmy.ca 29 points 1 day ago (2 children)

30+ years!

.....fuck off, '94 wasn't 30.... counts on fingers several times

.....Shit.....

[–] P1nkman@lemmy.world 11 points 1 day ago (1 children)

I know... Jurassic Park is 33 years this year. It would be like watching a movie from the 60' when it was released.

We're old, friend.

[–] Sturgist@lemmy.ca 3 points 21 hours ago

I've never hated my life more than right now...

[–] Teal@lemm.ee 2 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

It doesn’t sound right but it is. I think in ‘94 I was using Juno for email and internet. Shortly after that it was time to actually use one of the many AOL trial discs for service instead of a mini frisbee/ninja star.

Modem sounds, chat rooms, you’ve got mail. What a time to live!

[–] Sturgist@lemmy.ca 2 points 17 hours ago

Fuck. I got free internet for almost 5 years. So many AOL discs. 01, 02? Friend's dad had a T1 connection put into their house for his work. The difference between T1 and the 56k I had at home? At home walk out the room, have a smoke, maybe ⅔ a boob loaded. At buddy's house, that's when I realised that the internet had the potential to change everything. Whole boob before you could even stand up.

Kids these days. No appreciation for how much struggle it used to be. Everything just. Just there. No bork the only computer in the house because boob.exe.

[–] bdonvr@thelemmy.club 30 points 1 day ago (7 children)

In the past 10 years it's pretty much just been Firefox, Safari, Explorer/Edge, and Chrome. 99% of browsers are just skinned Chrome. Even Edge now. Opera's engine died in 2013.

[–] P1nkman@lemmy.world 32 points 1 day ago (3 children)

99% if browsers are just skinned Chrome.

Yup. Hence, the reason I originally suggested to use Firefox, only because it's not built on Chromium.

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[–] CarbonBasedNPU@lemm.ee 33 points 1 day ago (40 children)

What issues do people even have with firefox? Its a browser, it seems fast enough. Isn't that all most people need from a browser

[–] leftzero@lemmynsfw.com 20 points 1 day ago (6 children)

Mainly that Google intentionally makes its sites (like YouTube or Google Docs) slower and less useable when they detect you're using Firefox, and/or ad blockers (which you need Firefox to use, so same difference).

It's mostly fixable with add-ons and userscripts (and eventually, one hopes, with an antitrust lawsuit), but it's still a hassle.

[–] Kalysta@lemm.ee 3 points 21 hours ago

Unfortunately, with the FTC rolling back net neutrality protections, I don’t see an antitrust lawsuit happening, or succeeding, anytime soon

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[–] mechoman444@lemmy.world 50 points 1 day ago (1 children)

Chrome? A browser that's easily replaceable with any other browser? Huh... Didn't see that one coming.

/S

[–] Dicska@lemmy.world 22 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago) (1 children)

I'm saying this as a 2 year convert Firefox user: mostly easily replaceable. Sure, I can browse pretty much every page that I can on chrome. However, a few sites don't work the same way - sometimes because of the site's conscious decision, sometimes because of Firefox.

Take Facebook, for example. On desktop, I can't make voice calls anymore from the desktop site. For a while it was possible with non encrypted chats, but now pretty much all of them are encrypted, and FF is not compatible with that. I also can't watch h265 videos in my chats anymore. I'm still sticking with FF, but I just can't easily say that FF is just as good for everything (I'm still not going back to chrome).

[–] ButtDrugs@lemm.ee 16 points 23 hours ago (3 children)

Yeah I'm a 20-some year FF user and when it started you had to have IE as a backup because not everything was compatible. In the late 2000s through late 2010s everything worked everywhere, then with chromes dominance places have stopped testing or supporting certain things in FF and it feels like history is repeating itself. Unfortunately you need a chromium-based backup realistically for certain sites, but 99.5% of things work totally fine in FF.

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[–] Arghblarg@lemmy.ca 1 points 13 hours ago

Vivaldi on Linux and Windows is still good in my experience, and so far uBlock Origin for manifest v2 still works. I hope they keep v2 support forever, forking completely if they must.

[–] sma3in@lemmy.world 53 points 1 day ago (1 children)

LibreWolf if you want security, privacy and freedom

https://librewolf.net/

[–] sunzu2@thebrainbin.org 13 points 1 day ago

Fennec on Android

[–] miridius@lemmy.world -3 points 10 hours ago

The Lemmy hivemind Firefox bias is a little bit insane lol

[–] cyrano@lemmy.dbzer0.com 127 points 1 day ago (1 children)
[–] Ethanol@pawb.social 6 points 15 hours ago

upvoted for the spinny gif ... weeeeeeeee C:

[–] PumpkinEscobar@lemmy.world 49 points 1 day ago (4 children)
[–] rageagainstmachines@lemmy.world 1 points 2 hours ago

This looks really interesting, but I have so many questions. A few important ones that come to mind immediately:

  1. What is the user agent that's reported? I'm guessing Firefox, but if there are any indicators that would give it away it's not Vanilla Firefox or a popular fork, this could make you more unique.
  2. Are the mods publicly identifiable? Another thing that might make you very unique and prone to fingerprinting.

A core part of being private online is blending in with traffic, so using a niche browser like Zen (depending on the configuration) would make you stand out.

The product looks good, and the privacy policy is pretty good too. Still, it'd be good to understand all the aspects of how Zen prevents you from standing out in the crowd.

I don't know if you or someone else can speak to this. I would jump into their community, but it's on Discord, so that's absolutely not happening.

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It's a good thing I stayed loyal to Firefox. Mainly due to my dislike of change lol, but I was forced to use Chrome and it felt ominous with its owner being Google.

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