this post was submitted on 30 Jan 2025
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[–] Gayhitler@lemmy.ml 37 points 6 days ago (4 children)

The safety thing is 100% true but only part of the picture.

E-bikes don’t need maximum energy density because they’re not gonna be used for long trips and are significantly lighter than cars and trucks.

China has many, many more electric vehicles than any other country and a ton of electricity production to run them. At some point it’s gonna become important to save the lithium batteries for the stuff that needs that high density power.

Maybe these better chemistries that will replace lithium are just around the corner. I certainly don’t count unhatched chickens.

[–] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 23 points 5 days ago

Makes sense. Thanks, Gayhitler.

[–] TheObviousSolution@lemm.ee 14 points 6 days ago (3 children)

I don't think you realize just how fast lead acid batteries deteriorate when using their smaller charge capacities. In cars and many electronics they are used because they can be shamelessly charged to 100%, and they are supposed to maintain 100% or close to it. They require constant monitoring to be stored properly in a way that lasts. Using them up below 50% will decrease their lifespan significantly. Lithium batteries are quite different, they shouldn't be charged to 100% but in turn they can use a greater amount of their charge while holding more of it without significant deterioration. They have significantly longer lifespans when used properly. Before we had gasoline cars we had electric cars that used lead acid batteries, there's a reason they stopped being used.

What China wants to do is eliminate the older lithium ebikes because they were built with barely any safety regulation. To do this, they need to offer a cheaper option to their citizens, and the only way they can essentially do this without the original problem persisting is using lead acid batteries, because even a cheap lead acid battery with a cheap charger isn't going to fail spectacularly like the lithium ones. LiFePO4 are far safer than lithium while still having higher energy densities, but you won't see those get promoted because they would be costlier.

[–] rickyrigatoni@lemm.ee 4 points 5 days ago

Who would have thought a ml user named gay hitler would be wrong about everything.

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[–] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 12 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Wait, what? I drain my battery every day. I need more energy density, not less. I do use my bike for long trips, driving a car during rush hour sucks, parking fees are insanely high and parking spots are rare. I sold my car and do everything by electric bike. But after 2 hours of cycling at 32km/h I need to charge.

[–] Korhaka@sopuli.xyz 11 points 5 days ago (1 children)

Also isn't lead acid heavy as fuck for the energy stored? The difference there is more noticeable on a bike.

[–] sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works 3 points 5 days ago (2 children)

It's heavy and bursty. It's really not great for sustained energy discharge, which is why it's used as a starter and not for hybrid engines at runtime.

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[–] Gayhitler@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 days ago (1 children)

I meant the ~300 mile ranges common in electric cars. That’s a long trip. Plus if the car rolls to a stop by the side of the road you just gotta have it towed or charge it up in the field somehow, electric bikes have pedals.

It sucks to pedal a heavy ass ebike but you can do it in a pinch to get where you need to go.

[–] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 3 points 5 days ago (19 children)

Yeah, have fun peddling a heavy as fuck ebike when you're 1 hour 32km/h drive away from home. That's over 2h of super heavy cycling because you're going super slow.

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[–] humanspiral@lemmy.ca 9 points 5 days ago (2 children)

E-bikes don’t need maximum energy density because they’re not gonna be used for long trips and are significantly lighter than cars and trucks.

Actually, ebikes need energy density the most. They tend to not have fast public charging. A lighter ebike has huge advantages, if only for maneuvering a couple of stairs or over a log, but also in suspension and handling + a huge difference in range/acceleration.

For an EV, you don't need "race car" performance, and heavy chemistries are ok. Bike performance just gets a huge boost from relatively minor cost to improve weight/range and performance.

[–] RaoulDook@lemmy.world 3 points 5 days ago

Sodium Ion batteries would be a better weight compromise than going to shitty old lead batteries. The new sodium batteries have almost no downsides but aren't quite as energy dense as lithium types. So they might be great in a large vehicle that's already going to be heavy, not so much in a smaller car. Saving the lithium stuff for smaller things is best (phones, laptops, etc)

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[–] DudeImMacGyver@sh.itjust.works 50 points 6 days ago (2 children)
[–] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 14 points 6 days ago (1 children)

The headline means newly manufactured e-bikes with lead acid batteries.

[–] Ajen@sh.itjust.works 5 points 6 days ago (3 children)

That doesn't explain why the new bikes have older technology than the bikes they're urging people to trade in.

[–] Nytarsha@lemmy.sdf.org 15 points 6 days ago (1 children)

It's in the article:

Over the last decade or so, China has seen a shift from older AGM batteries, which are heavy and bulky, toward lighter and longer-lasting lithium-ion batteries.

However, safety concerns regarding rare yet dangerous lithium-ion battery fires have put a pause on that proliferation. The government instituted new safety standards for lithium-ion batteries in e-bikes last year, but there’s also been a major pushback toward AGM batteries for the domestic market.

[–] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 8 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

Do you know that LiFePO4 cells are the same price (in Europe), longer-lasting, lighter and safer than traction lead-acid ones? They pretty much have no disadvantages to lead-acid, and the need of a BMS (and heater if needing to charge below freezing or run below -4 °F/-20 °C) is no problem since those are a fraction of the cells' price. The only reason I see behind this move would be acute lithium shortage in China.

[–] chonglibloodsport@lemmy.world 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

From what I can tell, lead acid batteries in Europe have taxes applied to them to pay for recycling. Other places don’t have these taxes so lead acid batteries are very cheap there.

Having said that, I watched a video of a guy in Bangladesh recycling lead acid batteries by hand just using simple tools and a pot to melt the lead over a wood fire and a simple mold to pour the lead plates.

It’s a very basic, easy thing to do. It’s just labour intensive so it ends up very expensive if you have to pay Europeans to do it.

[–] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 3 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Lead acid is LITERALLY the oldest known rechargeable battery type so I am not surprised you can make them with ancient tools if you're also OK with 19th century "safety standards".

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[–] RaoulDook@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago

Same in the US too. LiFEPO4 storage batteries are available cheaper than lead-acid for equal or even higher capacity.

Until the trumptard tariffs wreck our markets at least

[–] Pyr_Pressure@lemmy.ca 3 points 6 days ago

Because new items can still use old technologies if it makes more sense to do so?

A 2025 vehicle with a manual radio sold for $30,000 might still sell better than a 2020 vehicle with a touchscreen dash for $25,000

[–] CrimeDad@lemmy.crimedad.work 2 points 5 days ago

The article provides a decent explanation.

[–] BigDanishGuy@sh.itjust.works 2 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Yeah, they should have just gone to the frontier of technology with carbon-air cells. It's weird, right? I thought China was a first mover in tech.

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[–] buzz86us@lemmy.world 6 points 6 days ago

Ehh they need to do sodium batteries

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