UK expected to give Ukraine Storm Shadow missiles to strike inside Russia (www.theguardian.com)

submitted 4 days ago by Emperor@feddit.uk to c/uk_politics@feddit.uk

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Britain is expected to supply Storm Shadow missiles for use by Ukraine on targets inside Russia, now that the US president, Joe Biden, has agreed to do the same for the similar American long-range Atacms weapon.

Keir Starmer, the prime minister, said at the G20 summit that the UK recognised it needed to “double down” on its support for Ukraine, while diplomatic sources briefed they expected other European countries to follow the US lead.

...

Russia, however, accused the west of escalation and said that Biden risked adding “fuel to the fire” in Ukraine, and while Donald Trump remained silent on the issue, his son Don Jr accused the military industrial complex of wanting to get “world war three going”.

Storm Shadow missiles have a range of about 250km (155 miles), similar to the US Atacms, and have in the past been given to Kyiv by the UK and France to strike targets inside Ukraine’s internationally recognised borders.

But the US retained an effective veto on their use because it supplies a guidance system and repeated lobbying by the UK had failed to shift the US position, which has only begun to soften after the election victory of Donald Trump earlier this month.

...

Ukraine had also become increasingly exasperated with Britain on the issue of long-range missiles, complaining earlier this month that not only had there been no progress on their use inside Russia but that the UK had stopped supplying them at all.

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[-] aaaaaaadjsf@hexbear.net 13 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Storm Shadow missiles have a range of about 250km (155 miles), similar to the US Atacms, and have in the past been given to Kyiv by the UK and France to strike targets inside Ukraine’s internationally recognised borders.

This depends. The Storm Shadow/SCALP missiles Ukraine has, have had their range restricted to approximately this so far to comply with missile export controls and treaties. The domestic UK and French variants have an unrestricted range of around 560km/350mi, and there have been talks of sending Storm Shadow/SCALP missiles without restrictions to Ukraine. However, such a range could put Moscow in range of Ukrainian strikes, so I don't think the US/UK or France will give Ukraine unrestricted Storm Shadow/SCALP missiles, it would be seen as too large of an escalation/an unacceptable escalation. But crazier things have happened in this war so far...

[-] HumanPenguin@feddit.uk 8 points 4 days ago

The way, it seems like Both Starmer and Biden are talking,

The current goal seem to be to convince Russia the war is too costly before Trump gets in.

If so. Honestly, I don't think Moscow is considered untouchable by them any more.

I think they may have decided, allowing a nation to think its capital is safe while it is attacking another nation's capital. It is just encouragement for that first nation to continue the war.

But like your comment. It's just an opinion/guess based on the rhetoric I am seeing.

I'll add if Russia is serious about MAD no longer applying. As they claim with their non nuke attack responding in a nuke response claims.

Then everything I have ever seen about the US and NATO's attitude. Once MAD is off the table, so is the concept of a world peace. NATO has depended on the no first strike agreement from its birth. Without that, the US is less likely to be rational when it comes to nukes.

[-] Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net 12 points 4 days ago

It's insane how horny the west is for nuclear armageddon lmao

[-] sirico@feddit.uk 10 points 4 days ago

People in power grew up with it being teased with it, guess they want to see the fireworks before they pop off.

[-] Emperor@feddit.uk 9 points 4 days ago

I now want a t-shirt that says "horny for Armageddon".

[-] mannycalavera@feddit.uk 7 points 4 days ago

feddit.uk Christmas presents?

[-] Emperor@feddit.uk 7 points 4 days ago

If we avoid a nuclear winter, the f.uk store will have plenty to purchase.

[-] ALiteralCabbage@feddit.uk -2 points 4 days ago

I mean, they just want to sell missiles and make that moolah. It's the man in Moscow who keeps threatening nuclear winter...

[-] Ram_The_Manparts@hexbear.net 14 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

Maybe we should meet "the man in Moscow" (as if this has anything to do with one specific individual lol) in the middle then, and avoid us all getting vaporized.

Wold be nice.

[-] ALiteralCabbage@feddit.uk 2 points 4 days ago

I mean, I'm being facetious, it's obviously shitty that people are being fed into a meat grinder, but from where I'm sitting it seems like Ukraine is being used as a fertile market for armements and whoever makes up the bunch I charge of Russia's nukes are using them as an attempt to stop interference in their efforts to annexe a neighbour.

What's the chapo traphouse/ML take on this?

[-] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 10 points 4 days ago

You're mostly correct except Russia obviously doesn't want to annex Ukraine, only the majority Russian parts that have been treated as second class citizens by Ukraine's nazi government. If they annexed all of it, they'd only create larger problems for themselves in the borders with NATO members; keeping Ukraine neutral is the whole point (and is beneficial for everyone except arms dealers as you pointed out)

[-] MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 4 days ago

It's also worth remembering Russia's position in the peace talks that started immediately after the war began:

Few now remember that the war almost ended before it got going. On February 24, 2022, Russia launched ground and air attacks on Ukraine on four fronts. On February 28, 2022, Russian and Ukrainian officials came together in Gomel, Belarus, to start to negotiate peace. Peace talks continued intermittently for a month before being called off...

According to a New York Times analysis of the 2022 negotiations later that year... Russia demanded Ukrainian recognition of its annexation of Crimea in 2014, permanent Ukrainian neutrality, and autonomy for the ethnic Russian provinces, or oblasts, in eastern and southeastern Ukraine.

Russia never wanted to annex Ukraine wholesale. It didn't even want any new territory.

What tanked these talks was not the Ukranian government, but their NATO puppetmasters:

An even bigger obstacle to further talks may have been the arrival in Kyiv on April 6 of British Prime Minister Boris Johnson. According to Davyd Arakhhamia, Ukraine’s chief negotiator at Istanbul, “Johnson brought two simple messages to Kyiv. The first is that Putin is a war criminal; he should be pressured, not negotiated with. And the second is that even if Ukraine is ready to sign some agreements on guarantees with Putin, they [the NATO powers] are not.” Three days after Johnson returned home Putin announced publicly that talks with Ukraine “had reached a dead end.” For his part, Johnson promised Zelensky $130 million of military equipment and $500 million kin financial aid, while President Biden announced a $800 million military package to Ukraine.

[-] CascadeOfLight@hexbear.net 2 points 4 days ago

[removed by mod]

[-] CascadeOfLight@hexbear.net 11 points 4 days ago

::: spoiler Furthermore, here's a very interesting series of maps:

Percentage of the population that are native Russian speakers.

Support for Yanukovich, the president overthrown in 2014 and replaced by a government that immediately banned the use of Russian in offical documents and schools.

Support for Volodomir Zelenski - or Vladimir Zelensky, as he would have been known in his first language, Russian - who ran against the coup leader on a platform of reconciliation with the separatist areas, right up until he won and someone with Hitler tattoos and a big gun explained his situation to him.

And last but not least, a map of Russia's early warning RADAR system, which you may notice a slice of eastern Ukraine sits neatly under, making it the ideal launch point for a decapitation strike against Moscow.

So "annexing a neighbour" is trivially not what Russia wants, or is even capable of achieving. They want a demilitarized, denazified zone encompassing their most vulnerable border, a totally reasonable desire for any state, especially one facing down the lying, bloodthirsty savages of NATO. It will grab the areas of Russian speakers that it's actually possible to assimilate, bringing the territory under their internal security arrangements, and leave the majority-Ukrainian-speaking areas that would be impossible to control to some sort of Kiev-run rump state.

[-] AmericaDelendaEst@hexbear.net 8 points 4 days ago

In b4 this comment gets removed too 🙄

[-] ALiteralCabbage@feddit.uk 6 points 4 days ago

Thanks for actually explaining your position - I'm annoyed it got nixed because I actually wanted to read it properly!

[-] MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 4 days ago

You should be able to read it in the modlog still.

[-] MarxMadness@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 4 days ago

They want a demilitarized, denazified zone encompassing their most vulnerable border, a totally reasonable desire for any state, especially one facing down the lying, bloodthirsty savages of NATO.

And this was promised to Russia upon the breakup of thr Soviet Union -- Ukraine's constitution calls it something like a "permanently neutral state."

Then, after 20 years of NATO pushing east (and destroying countries like Yugoslavia and Libya), the U.S. backs a color revolution in Ukraine in 2014. Next you start hearing talks of Ukraine joining NATO and Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine start getting attacked. Then Ukraine breaks the Minsk agreements (those same ones Angela Merkel admitted were a stall tactic to arm Ukraine for this very war).

You can disagree over whether this approaching hostility is justification for an invasion (the U.S. certainly would think so; it invaded Cuba over far less), but there's really no argument that evil Putler just woke up one day and decided to do a land grab for reasons.

[-] AmericaDelendaEst@hexbear.net 6 points 4 days ago

You're a fucking moron, and whatever mod wants to remove this again do me a favor and ban me if this shithole is so full of liberalism

"Brigading" literally could you cry harder

[-] ALiteralCabbage@feddit.uk 5 points 4 days ago

Come on mods - it's fine for people to disagree/discuss/whatever.

Maybe I'm a moron and maybe this person is a tactless tankie.

I actually appreciated that there's some actual fucking discussion here.

[-] GreatAlbatross@feddit.uk 5 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago)

We try.
So far, we've not defederated from hexbear.
When we have a thread that's 50% comments from another instance, upvoted solely by that instance, it's shit.

[-] AmericaDelendaEst@hexbear.net 6 points 4 days ago

you're a fucking moron

[-] ALiteralCabbage@feddit.uk 0 points 4 days ago

Is the correct narrative that poor old Russia is being pushed to use nukes by NATO operations which are attempting to stop the annexation of Ukraine?

[-] FunkyStuff@hexbear.net 6 points 4 days ago

If you were alive in the Cuban missile crisis you'd be saying some wild stuff like "Turkey NEEDED those nukes!"

[-] ALiteralCabbage@feddit.uk 6 points 4 days ago

Turkey isn't in Cuba /s

(But I see your point).

[-] CascadeOfLight@hexbear.net 5 points 4 days ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_missile_crisis

[-] AmericaDelendaEst@hexbear.net 5 points 4 days ago

Yeah if you're a fucking moron, ignorant of NATO expansionism or general strategic goals regarding Russia, and think the war started in 2022 because you have literally no understanding of historical context

[-] mannycalavera@feddit.uk 8 points 4 days ago

After almost three years Biden says now is the time to allow Ukraine to use long range missiles. Something they've been asking about since the start. Is it perhaps a play to embarrass Trump if he thinks about rescinding this permission. That would clearly put him in alignment with Putin. I didn't think Joe had it in him to think this strategically. Shame it is at the end of his presidency.

It's also lower risk for him than it is for European allies that will inevitably be called out and targeted by Russia. Are the other bordering and near bordering counties so willing to escalate the war?

[-] Thordros@hexbear.net 4 points 4 days ago

Ahahahaha, they named their supermissile after the evil ninja from GI Joe?! What a bunch of dweebs.

[-] HumanPenguin@feddit.uk 11 points 4 days ago

GI Joe never made it to the UK. So unlikely any aged military top brass recognise it.

A bit like Americans naming chocolate bars, after UK names for women's underwear.

[-] sunzu2@thebrainbin.org 0 points 4 days ago

Since when did short range missle become "long"

Do fake news imbeciles even consult with any experts before editing this slop?

this post was submitted on 20 Nov 2024

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