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basically a 'them perticipating in genocide is ok bc they won't target minorities at "home"' (lemmy.dbzer0.com)

submitted 1 week ago* (last edited 4 hours ago) by alsaaas@lemmy.dbzer0.com to c/leftymemes@lemmy.dbzer0.com

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ik that Biden isn't re-running, but Kamala is basically the same from the macro pov

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[-] prototype_g2@lemmy.ml 1 points 3 days ago

I don't see the logic.

I think we can all agree that genocide is bad, right? And we can all agree that is happening in Palestine is genocide, correct? And therefore we would like to elect someone who would be more likely to stop the genocide.

The Democrats don't seem to want to stop... But neither do the republicans. I don't see the argument.

To my understanding, neither party has any plans to stop the genocide so what the point of contention? I understand that simply voting will do nothing to fix anything, but picking the lesser evil (which is still evil) will buy us more time. Point is, voting for Trump wouldn't be any better, nor voting for a 3rd party due to the flaws of the First Past The Post voting system.

If one should not vote for the Democrats, then who should we vote for? Trump? Seriously, what's your plan?

[-] Badeendje@lemmy.world 12 points 1 week ago

I don't know what to think about people claiming to be LGBT+ allies who would even remotely entertain not voting Harris.. as the risk to the people they say they want to protect is domestic as well. This is a palestinians lose or everyone lose waaaayyyyy worse kinda deal .. so yeah.. apparently ideals don't matter that much.

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[-] luciferofastora@lemmy.zip 8 points 1 week ago

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[-] zazazaza@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 week ago

Anyone who explicitly decides against voting for Harris/Walz implicitly decides that they're fine with Trump.

And anyone who explicitly decides voting for Harris/Walz explicitly decides they are fine with genocide irrespective of Trump.

If Trump promised to end the Palestinian Genocide, but all other points of his agenda (labor protections, lgbt rights etc.) were the same, would you vote for Trump instead? Would you fuck over every other bit of progress for that one issue?

In a fantasy world where he would actually do it, yes? So you're saying you are okay with max libertarianism in your own county even if that means ethnically cleansing an innocent population in another? That's a very backwards understanding of liberty and human rights.

Also saying "that one issue" when we're talking about a literal genocide is super rich. Would you have said the same thing about the Holocaust? "I know this Hitler guy really hates minorities but look at how much he loves doggos and what amazing things he's doing for the German economy!"

If the Overton Window can be yanked back to the left and the Christofascists left behind

You see voting for a party that has vowed unwavering support for an oppressor to exterminate a native population as a move to the left? You'd rather vote for Librofascists than Christofascists and that's your choice - I'd rather not vote for fascists at all.

Just don't blame voters that draw a hard line at genocide if the Dems lose, rather ask why they are willing to throw an election by not taking a hard stance against the literal worst crime against humanity.

[-] luciferofastora@lemmy.zip 5 points 1 week ago

And anyone who explicitly decides voting for Harris/Walz explicitly decides they are fine with genocide irrespective of Trump.

No. They decide that they prioritise the other issues over a vapid gesture of protest.

For direct democratic votes, you directly vote on a specific issue. But in a representative democracy, you vote for the candidate best representing your preferred policies. If there is no candidate that ticks all your boxes, you prioritise and decide on a tradeoff.

That tradeoff takes into account the strategic realities of the voting system. If I have to choose between "Genocide", "Genocide, but worse" and "I'll let the rest decide", abstaining or voting 3rd party is no noble gesture, it's complacency.

In a fantasy world where he would actually do it, yes?

You'd let an out and open fascist take the reigns, if he'd stop one particular genocide?

So you're saying you are okay with max libertarianism in your own county even if that means ethnically cleansing an innocent population in another?

So much wrong with this sentence. First, no, I'm not a libertarian. If you mean liberty, check your translator. Second, we're very far away from "max liberty". Third, that's a false equivalency: To refuse one extreme doesn't equal embracing the opposite. There is a lot of space between them.

Fourth, if it's about the defense of civil rights, I need to look to my own freedom first. I can't help anyone else when I'm chained down myself. Particular if I can't help the others this way anyway, it's a lot smarter to prioritise things I can actually change than try to set a sign and hope it stays up long enough to matter.

Also saying "that one issue" when we're talking about a literal genocide is super rich. Would you have said the same thing about the Holocaust? "I know this Hitler guy really hates minorities but look at how much he loves doggos and what amazing things he's doing for the German economy!"

Brilliant! Your example for "that one issue" is the exact guy Trump would love to buddy uo with! The exact guy whom I hate with a passion because of so many issues, not just one. Would Hitler have been a good person if he hadn't killed the Jews (just enslaved them, deported the gypsies and generally still been an all around racist cunt)?

You see voting for a party that has vowed unwavering support for an oppressor to exterminate a native population as a move to the left?

That says a lot about where the window is, yes. Because both major parties fit that description, except one of them is even worse. Hence, the less bad one is a left, relative to contemporary political center.

You'd rather vote for Librofascists than Christofascists and that's your choice - I'd rather not vote for fascists at all.

So you'd rather have the rest of the people decide? You don't care about gay rights or all that shit, you have no horse in that race, doesn't matter to you whether the winner starts rounding up political enemies (you know, lefties like you and me)?

Because I fucking care. And I'm not going to throw a tantrum and quit the field because one issue I care about isn't even on the board.

Just don't blame voters that draw a hard line at genocide if the Dems lose, rather ask why they are willing to throw an election by not taking a hard stance against the literal worst crime against humanity.

I don't understand why people are so sure that a hard pro-Palestine stance would help them. It would make them the prime target of propaganda designed to alienate the superficial moderates. It would make them a clear enemy of the AIPAC and other pro-Israel PACs that together hold a non-negligible amount of sway. I don't think that the voters they'd gain by that outnumber the white moderates that hear "They're antisemitic moslems" and believe it.

If you believe that using the ballot to protest an issue not being on the agenda is more important than the other issues that are on the agenda, you're very narrow-minded.

[-] Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 3 days ago

No. They decide that they prioritise the other issues over a vapid gesture of protest.

Yes, saying that killing innocents is wrong is 'vapid'.

Yet, when you - very rightly - raise the horrors of Trump, the very real and dangerous potential of him harming innocent people is terrible.

Are you contradicting yourself?

[-] luciferofastora@lemmy.zip 2 points 3 days ago

Yes, saying that killing innocents is wrong is 'vapid'.

No. Refusing to vote or voting third party is. At best, it will make no difference.

Protesting against the Genocide is right and important, but I'm railing against the people intent on dragging this topic to the public right before an election. The only people it will affect are left-leaning voters, and drawing them away from the non-Trump option sabotages that option.

Save the protest until the election is done, then hold the government (not just Harris; allocation of funding is a parliamentary decision and the President's veto can't do much but delay it and lock up government) accountable.

To be clear, Genocide is bad, what's happening in Gaza is Genocide, the US regime is complicit and all of this is fucked up. But the immediate priority should be unity to keep things from escalating beyond democratic control.

[-] Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone -1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

No. Refusing to vote or voting third party is. At best, it will make no difference.

Will anything make a difference to Israel being allowed to continue state terrorism and war against civilians? I'm concerned the answer might be 'no', as the political will to do this hasn't been high.

but I’m railing against the people intent on dragging this topic to the public right before an election.

The killing of innocents is not less important just because of political convenience.

But the immediate priority should be unity to keep things from escalating beyond democratic control.

It is not the fault of a particular individual voter that they are given two options, both of which are right-wing, and both of which are complicit in killing the innocent. This might even be a situation which is not fixable at the ballot box, considering how Trump has a history of starting armed insurrections against democratic norms.

[-] luciferofastora@lemmy.zip 1 points 3 days ago

Will anything make a difference to Israel being allowed to continue state terrorism and war against civilians?

Only one way to find out: Trying. But mathematically, drawing votes away from the non-Trump candidate increases the risk of another Trump presidency, and that carries the risk of further curtailing options.

The killing of innocents is not less important just because of political convenience.

...and which innocents do you actually have a chance to protect?

On a pragmatic level, what is your suggested course of action?

[-] Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 3 days ago

On a pragmatic level, what is your suggested course of action?

I am not pragmatic about the chances of humans when it comes to not oppressing each other. They seem to do it in order to profit from the power imbalance.

I'm just saying I don't like it, and waiting to die.

[-] luciferofastora@lemmy.zip 1 points 2 days ago

Yeah, well, some of us aren't willing to give up just yet. Some of us are willing to reach for that slim chance that there is a way out. Some of us are trying to make things better, but like all political activism that has to follow some strategic approach.

I didn't hear many people complain about "both sides endorse genocide" until this election. Up to the primaries, pressuring your party to be anti-genocide is good and reasonable, and after the election is done, when the new government is being formed, pressuring it to be anti-genocide is critical, but right now, the strategic thing is to focus on things this election can change.

That sudden upsurge of "both sides" rhetoric particularly in leftist spaces is concerning. Whether out of ignorance of how funding works, defeatism like yours or genuinely bad actors seeking to manipulate the election, it sabotages that pragmatic effort to keep the fascist out of office and buy time for more direct measures like protests, petitions, whatever else you want.

"Both sides bad" may be true, but right now, it's not helpful for leftist efforts.

[-] zazazaza@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 days ago

The first mistake was bartering with moderates - if a person is willing to compromise on genocide - what would they not be willing to compromise on?

MLK said it 60 years ago and it's still true today: “…that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Councilor or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to ‘order’ than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: ‘I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action’; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a ‘more convenient season'"

But keep waiting and hoping that next cycle the window wouldn't have moved further to the right

[-] luciferofastora@lemmy.zip 1 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

This election isn't the only measure to take, and it requires no waiting. You can still protest and riot and everything else - none of that conflicts with also voting. It's not either or.

What MLK complains about are the people that only vote to stall and never do. I'm pretty sure he'd have been in favour of voting and taking action.

What else do you propose? What do you think would be the strategic choice?

[-] zazazaza@lemmy.ml 1 points 6 days ago

As I replied to the commenter above - I'm not telling anyone to not vote for whoever they think has the highest chance of minimizing harm - just don't rely on voting being the only way to exercise your opinion (as some people have claimed is the only power they have left) - if you remember that voting blue is a just a short term strategy to prevent orange man from getting in and fucking shit up - do it. But don't forget that voting is only the beginning - and until we have tens of millions out on the streets protesting against the Dems being okay with literal genocide - nothing will change for the better.

We can't have our freedoms be won on the backs of bombing children - it wasn't okay when Obama did it - it's not okay now.

[-] luciferofastora@lemmy.zip 0 points 5 days ago

I'm not telling anyone to not vote for whoever they think has the highest chance of minimizing harm

And anyone who explicitly decides voting for Harris/Walz explicitly decides they are fine with genocide irrespective of Trump.

Was that not your comment? Equating "you vote for Harris" with "you don't care about genocide" does sound like you're trying to influence people away from voting Harris.

My argument is that harm reduction ≠ endorsement of genocide. Voting for a block of policies doesn't mean you're fine with all the policies, just that you think it's the most strategic option for your convictions. Not voting leaves the choice up to everyone.

Unless you think voting will make no difference at all for anything, even the chance of slowing catastrophe and buying time for other measures is valuable.

Because on this point we agree:

voting blue is a just a short term strategy to prevent orange man from getting in and fucking shit up

[-] zazazaza@lemmy.ml 0 points 5 days ago

I think both can be true - strategically voting for dems is still a conscious choice to vote for a party that supports foreign genocide.

Like in the trolley problem - you can decide to kill less people but you're still a murderer either way - and because your hand was forced you can then spend the rest of your life using the guilt to figure out who tied those people to the tracks and how to make sure it doesn't happen again.

My fear is that the bread and circus that the dems are selling is too comfortable so people wouldn't feel the need to rise up in arms against the system since "they haven't come for them yet" - but so long as blue voters always remember they have blood on their hands and feel remorseful about the choice they made - that can be channeled into positive change via direct action.

[-] A_Very_Big_Fan@lemmy.world 5 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

The high horse you've chosen to mount will get us more genocide and a whole host of new issues for queer people and people of color. Nobody will be giving you moral brownie points for allowing that to happen.

Is your moral grandstanding worth the lives it'll cost?

[-] Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Is your moral grandstanding worth the lives it’ll cost?

You're the one arguing in support of a situation where innocent people are dying right now. If killing based on group identity is wrong, as you say, then this is wrong.

whole host of new issues for queer people and people of color

This isn't an either/or situation. We don't have to sacrifice Palestinians (and Lebanese, and any other groups of civilians who become involved because Israel decides to do so) - including queer and of colour members of those communities - for our own safety.

And, if this is an either/or situation, we do need to allow people in a far-off country to die for our safety: fuck it. I don't deserve to be safe more than them. Take my safety and kill me. The human world is not one I want to live in any longer, if we must sacrifice innocents in one country just because of the accident of their birth.

As you said elsewhere:

Like when I asked one of my friends how he reconciled the idea that everyone who commits suicide goes to hell with the fact that our mutual friend committed suicide… He said God is omnibenevolent so logically him being in hell for eternity is a good thing.

You clearly can't reconcile the equivalent idea that people have to be killed just because of where they are. People should not be targeted with violence because they are queer, because they are of colour, or because they are in Palestine, Lebanon, or a similar country. Right?

[-] A_Very_Big_Fan@lemmy.world 0 points 3 days ago

Because of how First Past The Post voting works, it is an either/or situation. It's just how the math works out. Democrats splitting their votes across multiple candidates means their influence is divided by the same amount. Republicans effectively have zero division in their party, so Democrats can't afford to not vote for Kamala if they don't want Trump to get more people killed.

I understand being disgusted by the lack of options, but the fact of the matter is you can prevent Trump from making it worse. Or you can sit on your ass while Trump gets more people killed.

[-] Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 3 days ago

but the fact of the matter is you can prevent Trump from making it worse.

No, I cannot.

[-] A_Very_Big_Fan@lemmy.world 0 points 3 days ago* (last edited 3 days ago)

Then stand by and watch him increase the death toll you claim to care about.

I'll vote for the candidate who wants a cease-fire, rather than let the one who wants Israel to "win" get into office.

[-] Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone 0 points 3 days ago

I’ll vote for the candidate who wants a cease-fire

I would definitely vote for a candidate who committed to pushing through a cease-fire, if I could vote. And if that person wasn't Trump, because he'd be lying. And he wouldn't say that anyway, because it's not macho enough.

[-] knightly@pawb.social 4 points 1 week ago

If you don't like Trump then you should be begging Harris to act like she wants to get elected. Chastising voters because they don't like your candidate is only going to make them dig in their heels.

[-] Samvega@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 points 3 days ago

Thanks for saying this. All she has to do is say that it is illegal and immoral to kill innocents, and she will work to reign Israel in on this.

If Israel can't get rid of Hamas without committing state terrorism, they they just have to fucking stop.

[-] zazazaza@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 week ago* (last edited 1 week ago)

Is your relative safety worth the lives of thousands of Palestinians? You seem to think so. But always remember - "pragmatic" support for the "lesser evil" isn't going to result in less genocide - it just teaches them exactly how many atrocities you're willing to accept.

When you tell politicians they can bomb any country, support any ethnic cleansing, and expand any war while still getting your vote as long as they wave a rainbow flag - you're not preventing fascism, you're just giving it a differently colored stamp of approval.

The fact that you think "moral brownie points" are even part of the discussion only shows you view the lives of people as nothing more than a political tool.

And look, if your moral framework tells you to vote blue - vote blue - but don't let that be the end of it - go out and risk losing your freedom before there's no-one left to risk theirs to save yours.

[-] A_Very_Big_Fan@lemmy.world 2 points 6 days ago

I'm not just talking about our safety, I'm talking about the lives of Palestinians.

Nobody on the left likes FPTP or anything else about our voting system, and we all know it's bullshit, but this is what we have to work with. The moral brownie points you seem to be after won't be found by crossing your arms and allowing Republicans to pour gasoline on the fire, and no amount of Democrats doing the same will outweigh the political BS that influenced the party to fund a genocide in the first place.

Is your moral grandstanding worth risking more lives in Palestine (in addition to all of the issues it'll introduce for our own marginalized citizens)?

[-] zazazaza@lemmy.ml 2 points 6 days ago

Again, vote for the lesser evil - just don't forget they're evil and even after the election cycle is over continue to employ direct action to force the complicit ruling class into actually doing something - instead of being able to rely on "vote blue no matter who" voters to get elected year after year while they're slowing sliding to the right trying to win over conservatives.

[-] Semjaza@lemmynsfw.com 5 points 1 week ago

Which of the two choices in the US presidential election aren't supporting a genocide?

Does your not voting for Harris end the genocide?

[-] EndlessNightmare@reddthat.com 2 points 6 days ago

Which of the two choices in the US presidential election aren’t supporting a genocide?

This is my take. The U.S. government has already decided that it is going to support genocide. This topic is not up for a vote in 2024, the American public (i.e. voters) do not have the option of voting "no genocide please."

We really need some reform to our election system, because when the 2 parties both decide they want something we are railroaded. We need to get rid of the Electoral College and have ranked-choice or some other form of voting that makes 3rd party candidates viable.

[-] BoobaAwooga@lemmynsfw.com 6 points 1 week ago

No one is saying how dare you vote for trump to people voicing concerns. People are saying that to individuals willingly not voting, voting for trump in “protest,” or voting third party in “protest”

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this post was submitted on 24 Oct 2024

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