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Disco Elysium is a book disguised as a video game
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this post was submitted on 05 May 2023
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Increasingly convinced that the only way to make games with good stories is to make it a book. If the final product doesn't look like a visual novel or some ancient CRPG, you're doing it wrong.
How could you slander Dragon Age like this :ussr-cry:
Fr, origins actually had good world-building and character writing.
Have you played the other two? Trespasser is the best dragon age ever got
I tried to enjoy the sequels, but Origins was honestly the last BioWare game I enjoyed. They are popular though, so more of a me issue than anything else.
Ah no plenty of popular shit is trash. Honestly, I had to learn to appreciate the last two. Origins was my favorite game of all time so I went into the sequels comparing to that and I didn't enjoy it. But, once I learned to appreciate each for its own reasons I began to enjoy all of them. Origins is incredible and was my favorite game for a long time, but I might like inquisition the best now, with the addition of the DLC. high school me was so disappointed with Dragon age 2 that it made me less passionate about gaming as a whole. Now I think that its actually a really great game with the best characters of the whole series. Each of them does things the others don't, each of them has strengths and weaknesses the others don't.
I'm honestly a bit of a fangirl with the series. I visit the subreddit most days, and I've played inquisition 5 times, DA2 3 times and DAO 6 times. I'm a big art snob but I have a soft spot for fantasy and DA does it really well.
That’s a ringing endorsement and honestly convinced me to give it another go.
I know it’s at least partially the age I was at the time, but origins really was perfect to me. Well, that and Inon Zur’s amazing work.
What mindset would you recommend approaching inquisition from in order to appreciate it?
Ok lets start with the basics. Mods. Inquisition has some quality of life issues that mods help with alot. This list is recent enough that it should be comprehensive. The important ones are war table - no waiting, increased search radius, quicker looting, more banter, DAI Community patch, increase inventory capacity (if you don't enjoy inventory management). You could also download some texture mods or character creation mods.
I'd recommend going rogue artificer. Get the fun upgrade, stack crit (iirc), and go nuts. When I first went through the series origins combat was my favorite, now its probably inquisition.
Leave the hinterlands as soon as you can. Focus on the main zone quest line when you go to a new zone. The best one is probably crestwood. Fallow mire is decent for how short it is. Western approach is the worst one. Do not, under any circumstances, do the skull minigames. if you want to unlock the vault just use a save editor.
The highlights of the game are probably the templar recruitment quest, which I only did once because I always pick mages, and the DLC. The mage quest is good too though so if you want to pick mages just do it. The main point is that unless you just really like the game like I do don't try to 100% zones. You'll burn yourself out. The DLC is all meant for endgame though so don't do it too early. You could try dropping the difficulty and doing them early, but I don't remember how level scaling works. Do Jaws of Hakkon - Descent - final battle - trespasser.
Now, in terms of appreciating the story. The tone is lighter overall, though the writing isn't actually much lighter. It's the lack of horror elements and the pretty art style that are the big differences. There is still some body horror but its much tamer. If you're like me and as time has gone on you care less about things being "gritty" and "dark" you will like it more than you did before.
Additionally the structure is quite different. In Origins you follow a more typical fantasy story where you start as a nobody and have to prove yourself, not truly being respected until just before the final battle. There is a rhythm to this kind of story that people are very used to, and inquisition doesn't follow it. That is one of the biggest reasons some fans prefer origins. Inquisition is about being thrust into great responsibility and power completely by chance. It's also less about you and your companions and more about the inquisition. It serves to tell the story they want to, but its less of an individual story and some fans don't like that.
You have to understand going in that it is a different kind of story than Origins, less individual and personal and more about the wider world. It's worse as a power fantasy because of the way you are thrust into the inquisition and given so much power so early. It does politics pretty well and the world itself feels quite believable.
If you go into it wanting to experience a bigger, more interesting world, with a complex, believable political landscape, and you aren't married to a gritty presentation with a typical fantasy powerclimb you'll do fine. The characters are great, cassandra, varric, solas, and dorian are probably the highlights, though I think all are well done. Its a bioware RPG so talk to companions after every main story quest
The main point overall is that none of the games are direct sequels to each other. They exist in the same world, have similar themes, but are all very different. If you golly gee I sure do love origins and go into the others you'll be dissapointed. If you approach it with a desire to appreciate what each does better than the others you'll have a great time.
:read-theory: People's favorite game isn't origins like :reddit-logo: thinks. It's just whichever game you played first. /r/dragonage has comprehensive surveys about preferences and that seems to be the case. :read-theory:
By the way this is what each do well
they all have their struggles
:cat-trans: :only-good-gamer:
That’s a lot of info, thanks!
The mod list is highly useful, the war table made me feel like I was playing an mmo last time lol.
That’s good advice on the don’t 100% hinterlands, I was a hardcore completionist last time I gave it a shot.
Is artificer like a rogue? Crit stacking is always cool.
You’re right on about mellowing out with “everything needs to be like the worst parts of antiquity in order to be realistic” vibe.
My origins character almost undoubtedly left ferelden a worse place, but can you really blame an elf for burning it down? I still wish we got a direct sequel tbh, but you’ve definitely pointed out the things to look for and appreciate. I look forwards to seeing why so many people are obsessed with Solas as a companion on the sub.
Have fun being a completionist in jaws of hakkon. If you decide you want to do more open world stuff before the final battle you always can. Avoid the western approach, it has the weakest main quest and the worst art.
The amount of people who crush on the egg is honestly hilarious to me.
Yes! Rogue class artificer specialization. Artificer is the fan favorite because of the throw 10lbs of explosives that regen stamina when they crit (if you pick the right passive in the poison tree I think). Each class has 3 specializations. Warrior is only fun with templar, mage is fine as long as you avoid necromancer, rogue is good all around but artificer is clearly the best. Save playing warrior for a templar playthrough reaver is bad and boring, champion is broken and boring
You'll have fun playing an elf in this one. The main story is best for a human but everything else is best as an elf. There are some great choices you can make in some parts of the story. You might want to look up a guide to make sure you get the result you want in halamshiral though, its complicated.
thanks for the tips, human noble revenge saga was pretty goated in origins, but so was city elf.
What’s your opinion on blood mage in inquisition? In origins it really fit those “apostate anti-cleric” vibes
I loved those origins too, the dwarf ones were great but those two gave you the most story connection.
You learn some interesting things about blood magic lore wise in inquisition but there is no blood magic spec. You can't really be the leader of a chantry organization while doing the worst sin in the book. Rift mage, knight enchanter (arcane warrior), necromancer are the 3 specs. The necromancer spec is terrible and not that fun, but knight enchanter is literally ancient elvish magic so its the best for being full elfy. I haven't actually played it though, I did rift mage for my 1 mage playthrough. I thought it was neat and thematic and the animations and mechanics are great.
Dragon age 2 has a blood mage companion and a blood mage spec for hawke. Killing templars as a bloodmage in 2 is neat.
It's unlikely there will be a blood magic spec in Dreadwolf. The devs have said that they don't like the bloodmage option because realistically using it would draw enormous attention and its too much work to do that honestly. We might get a blood mage companion again, but I'd say that's unlikely. It's heavily implied by this point that there is no elf blood magic tradition. It's mostly a tevinter thing or an apostate thing. Dreadwolf is going to be a very rah rah fight the power game, based on leaks, and so any tevinter we get will be against the magisters and therefore unlikely to use blood magic.
We could get an apostate blood mage but I mean think about how many characters would just leave the party if someone was doing blood magic. Like, shale, morrigan, sten are probably the only ones who would stick with a blood mage in origins. In dragon age 2 only merill, varric, isabella. The whole inquisition would fall apart if you were a blood mage but the only companions who would tolerate it would be cole, solas, varric, dorian. The devs don't like that kind of immersion breaking where you are cutting open your hand to cast a spell right next to a former templar and two devout andrastians.
fuck, writing this makes me want to do a knight enchanter playthrough
:freeze-gamer:
Thanks for the info, I didn’t know about the devs saying that. It makes a lot of sense though.
Dread wolf sounds like it’s going to be lit, I’ve always felt like rebellions against magic users are under explored in fantasy. Like, if some people can harness the power of creation it would make sense for class divisions t o split along those lines.
Yeah honestly its probably a reaction to dragon age 2. Its a game about the templar mage conflict and if you play a mage you spend the whole time running around in wizard robes and a magic staff talking to templars telling you to report any suspicious people. You can also do blood magic with a party consisting of an active templar, an andrastian choir boy, and the captain of the guard. It's very B movie funny.
Tevinter is going to be a big part of it and their concept art for it looks incredible! I'm really excited for those stories. I love killing slavers.
My expectations are so high for it. Like, EA has given them such a long leash and the DLC that came out for inquisition was so good. It seems like they've been given what they need to make something really great. According to some leaks they are making big changes to the combat system though. Apparently its (recent) god of war style combat with mass effect style party control. It'd be the first time the studio has done anything like it in a very long time, and I'm concerned it will be a drain on the project.
That’s certainly…creative. With the current crog renaissance I kinda hope they don’t go further in on making it an action game, but getting something brand new is nice as well.
And as you said, killing slavers rules. Maybe if they also have GoW tier brutality the action elements can synergize with that.
It would also be cool to see how they incorporate roguery into such a combat system.
And yeah, you’re right it makes sense to remove it. It would be cool though if you had to convince your companions not to ditch you./actually turn against you. It would probably generate gamer rage if Leliana dumps them though.
Yeah its a renaissance but the funny thing is that when the devs of the CRPG games get successful they instantly switch it up to reach a bigger audience. The pillars and tyranny devs are doing it with avowed, bioware has been actionifying dragon age. The ones who have been sticking to the CRPG formula have also slowly been shifting to turn based focus. Real time with pause combat is sorta this middle ground that I think will give way to games focusing on crunchy tactics gameplay, owlcat and inixile, and the ones that push closer to action, bioware. Its like how traditional RTS games split into mobas and 4x/grand strategy.
I actually think that inquisition did a great job with the combat. Trespasser added an additional, swapable, skill upgrade for every skill in the game and it makes it so much better. You can pump the difficulty up really high with the trials system and I quite enjoy it.
Play the pillars games after this! The first one has a rough first 10 hours and combat I don't really like but the story is great. The second one has a worse story and companions but my favorite crpg combat ever, gorgeous art and stellar worldbuilding. The combat has such beautiful math, like, its so pretty. The story is about colonialism, environmentalism, different economics systems clashing, and faith. And you can just sorta land your ship on slaver island and kill all of the slavers and now theres no more (chattel) slavery :)
Yeah I'm pretty unsure about those leaks because how do you make mages and warriors and rogues all fun while moving towards action? Like if they add a parry system how would mages interact with it? In elden ring playing a mage is either roflstomping everything or running and hiding and spending 10 minutes killing 3 people. All it has going for it is the wizard power fantasy and the resource management.
Lmao love taking away the waifu. It'd be great if they saved it to the character file instead of the save file so that save scumming couldn't bring her back. Roll a new character boyo.
People talk about how its such a shame that there aren't more different endings to games because of time and budget constraints, especially for sequels, but things like companions that only follow you on certain playthroughs would be just as cool. Like, imagine if you had to choose between Jowan, Wynne, and Cullen depending on your choices in the circle tower. Or if the second of the new Dwarven king joins your party after. That sorta stuff would be great. The owlcat pathfinder games actually do this pretty well but I've never been as passionate about them. A spinoff game about apostates that deals more directly with blood magic as a central theme would be cool.
I see what you mean. perhaps I’m reaching a bit on this, but I’ve never considered RTwP to be a fundamentally necessary aspect of the genre (more a set of conventions that existed during a golden age that are treated as genre). Like, Larian and Owlcat give me huge amounts of hope for rpg games made for ttrpg enjoyers which is kind of how I’ve viewed the spirit of “crpg” as a genre.
Loved those games
This goes above my head, buts sounds like it’s super interesting.
That’s partly why I find it exciting. I love it when a studio charges head on against a design challenge. Even if it fails, it’s interesting to examine the why and how afterwards. If it works, they’ve progressed the medium.
Diabolical
Agreed. In BG3 it’s highly likely there is going to be a companion lock of some sort after act 1. We only have ancient dev diaries and some vague hints towards from data mining, but that might actually happen based off what we know so far.
I don’t think there’s been an attempt aside from Tyranny to tell a serious story about having a villain protagonist.
This could be an awesome to tell a story of a tragic villain. Like, the character starts as a hunted newly awakened mage who just wanted to be free or something. Have the wise old person character be a blood mage who saves them from the templars and go from there.
I really wished that I liked larian and owlcat's games more, they just feel kinda hokey to me. Maybe the reason I prefer Pillars and Dragon age is that they are more like novels in terms of storytelling than like ttrpgs. It makes sense that they are the ones that are moving towards action given that they feel more like stories than like adventures.
Basically attack rolls are all contested and miss/graze/hit/crit is based on the difference between the two rolls. Additionally each attribute point contributes to things relevant to every character because each contributes to at least 1 of 4 defense stats. The way everything fits together on every roll is incredibly satisfying. There is no part of the combat system that can be disregarded, no mechanics that certain characters ignore, its just very neat.
I mean theoretically a fantasy action combat system with mass effect style companion control sounds fucking excellent so I hope they stick the landing
I haven't tried it yet since I didn't like divinity too much. The artstyle and vibe were off for me. Maybe when its out of early access I will. Do you like it?
I would love it if they were put into a situation where the only way to escape was to use blood magic and so they swallow their pride and do it. But then in the future there was an opportunity to avoid using blood magic, de-escalation, lyrium, leverage/negotiation, but they don't see it. Watching them grapple with either the regret or the burden of the violent world they have created for themselves would be extremely good storytelling. Then they meet a butch lesbian ex templar who promises to protect them if they promise not to use blood magic and they have gay sex