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this post was submitted on 05 Jun 2024
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As wonderful a sweeping statement as "the left have lost their mind" (said no one who would ever vote left ever) is, its pretty laughable that anyone thinks the corporatist reform party would ever actually lower immigration.
I mean, literally all of the left leaning parties have said they will lower immigration but don't let that ruin the narrative.
I have exclusively only voted left actually.
The left aren't doing enough, the Tories have proven they haven't done enough. That's why reform makes sense because it sends a message about how much immigration needs to be reduced.
Course you did and it's their fault youre voting farrage too....
"Da left" haven't done anything at all, seeing as they haven't been in power for over 2 decades. Thats why your claim makes no sense.
Oh, it makes you send a message alright. Although, its not the one you think you're sending.
Why would I lie about voting for the left?
I have economically left views. But it's I don't think the left are planning to do enough.
There is nothing wrong with anything I said. Just you can't accept people have different opinions to you so all you think is that I must be lying.
To normalise the idea that people who once voted "for the left ^^^tm " now voting for a hard right reform party. Because you're bored. Because it seemed funny. Who knows, why does anyone lie?
So, as "the left" aren't meeting your left wing economic planning expectations, you decided to go with a party who have NO left leaning economic plans. Well, id love to hear how you plan to square that circle.
Of course I can accept that people have different opinions to me. What a silly thing to say. No, sadly, its that it sounds like bollocks and it doesn't hold up to any scrutiny, is all.
Of course it holds up to scrutiny. You are just close minded.
I, and probably most left wing people throughout history, have had economically left views and want low immigration. I don't know why you can't accept that.
The left aren't doing enough, or talking about doing enough, about immigration. So as such I have to make a decision. What's more important, kinda crappy left views that in my opinion don't go far enough. Or deal with immigration.
Immigration is such a big issue that the left are losing voters like me to parties that will do something about immigration.
If there was a left party talking about immigration as much as reform and was polling the same I'd vote for them. But right now the big issue is immigration and I want that solved. I'm willing to take a economic hit achieve that. But I also think lowering immigration is good for the economy and the workers in it. So I get to vote for 2/3 things I want rather than 1/3. There does that basic maths help you understand now? It's really not hard.
My mind is open. Its just youre taking a load of bollocks, is all. Its really not my fault you're trying to sell these whoppers.
I'll show you how it doesn't hold up:
Exaclty who are "the left" here and what isn't going far enough, that reform has gone far enough on? Don't be light on the detail or just declare wide sweeping BS and you should find the root of the problem.
https://metro.co.uk/2024/06/04/this-top-parties-election-say-immigration-20967177/
Labour has some vague promises about controlling borders. Great doesn't really say anything at all does it? Doesn't sound like immigration is going to come massively down.
Greens: No barriers to prevent or deter asylum seekers wanting to come into the UK. Scrap minimum income and language requirements for visas.
Brilliant. We have people already coming to the UK that won't integrate now we are going to bring in people that can't even speak English.
Do you actually care what plaid, SNP or any of the NI parties have to say? They are largely on labours level.
Reform
Focus on ‘the immigration election’ Stop the boats’ (with a six-point plan) Freeze all non-essential, ‘unskilled’ immigration (excluding care workers)
You must be able to see how reform are talking about doing more about immigration right? You can't be that thick.
You must be able to see voting for reform comes across more as "the UK wants less immigration" than voting for greens or labour.
Don't worry, no one here is as thick as you. Apparently, a points based system and banning companies who abuse the system is too vague and hard to understand for some of us.
"The boats" are a drop in the bucket compared to legal immigration, all cheered on by right wing corporatists. Its just a banner to distract morons.
So, what left leaving policy did they have? Remember, you had some hilarious claims about needing economic lefty-ness before. So, they must have something. I mean, it can't just be about immigration when all those factors that won you over would be included in a points based system?
Lol, we both know its not about the fine detail. Its about dog whistling.
If they capped the points based system them might get my vote. But points based system doesn't necessarily mean a drop in immigration.
I think I said I believe in economic left wing ideas I actually wrote some out here.
https://lemm.ee/comment/12515389
But for the benefit of the country, and the workers long term. Immigration trumps all my economic views, they can wait. Immigration down now, then left wing policies later.
The reason we have such hight immigration is because companies have been allowed to run roughshod over our immigration system. All they have to do is float some job adverts and they can pretend there's a skill shortage. Corporatists have done this to stop wages from going up. I image we agree roughly so far.
Labour want a points based system and a central body overlooking what actually is a skill shortage and whats a lie. Immigration will go down, as soon as you don't have corporatists in charge.
Haven't you found it funny how reform get so much airtime, despite having only one, solitary councillor in the whole of the UK? I mean, the greens have nearly 1,000 but we don't hear a peep out of them on the big news stations. Yet reform are all 9ver the place.
Anyway, in completely unrelated news I'm sure, reform are looking to gut our NHS and they're getting huge backing, support and platforming by the lobby groups who are lickling their lips and circling like vultures hoping to gorge themselves on tax payer money and the death our NHS may be driven to by the tories.
I had a glace at your link and I think we agree on lots of things. I'm sad to see that you've been convinced that we would ever be allowed to work less, under right wing governments. Theyre the driving force of immigration, lowered wages and cut services. There's nothing to suggest labour won't reduce immigration, other than the wild declarations and made up stories of people who would never vote labour anyway.
Youre trying to fuck your way to virginity.
I agree with most of what you said. But the right won't get in again unless they toughen up on immigration. The far right or the left will get in and the left know people want lowered immigration.
I'm never voting labour, I never have and I never will unless they try to get rid of FPTP. They are going to win anyway so my vote does nothing.
I don't think we will. But I love this country and I'm willing to make sacrifices, if I need to work 6 days a week to keep immigration down that's a tradeoff I'm happy to accept. But again. I don't represent 20 million votes. Me voting labour or reform isn't going to get either party in power/ keep them out.
You did claim to have voted left all before this. If not labour, who was it?
The idea that "the left" want immigration is a right wing trope, full of racism. They just presume they want more as "immigrants vote left" which is statically untrue. Its a mix, as we import conservative types too.
So, with that in mind, who actaully benefits from mass immigration? Its not labour or the people they represent. So, who is it that benefits from mass lowering of wages and increased housing prices due to the manufactured housing crisis?
Well, anyone should be able to figure out that it's the wealthy and their business interests who benefit and they're represented by the right. Always have been.
Being able to work less and not having to toil all day for someone else's gain is a left wing idea. Theres no world where the right get in and we work less. In fact, everything they do is to make non-rich people work more, for less.
I care about the people who live here and not symbols or fake, fairytale history that gets weaponised and used to make people vote against their own self interest. I care to save our NHS from the very same corporate interests you want to vote for. But you'd be happy to lose even more of your life to work and our NHS, if the right wing (who benefit the most and have presided over the most immigration ever) end immigration which would be impossible and they would never do anyway.
I mean, what am I supposed to say to that?
"As a black man..."
Congratulations on being black.
But there isn't much I can do to convince you to be black or not so it is irrelevant.
Seeing as we are talking about views and information. Then views are are relevant. Also I was directly (and incorrectly) called out for not being a leftie.
I am calling horseshit on you being "a leftie."
I'm sorry it wasn't blunt enough the first time.
'I'd always support [blank], but now they've nonspecifically gone too far! so I'm voting for the complete opposite' is fascist propaganda. What's it doing in your mouth, comrade?
Let me ask you bluntly then.
What makes a person left leaning vs right leaning? I'm talking minimum standard to be a leftie here not current left or current right parties.
I mean historically what views separate the right from the left?
Why would anyone put effort into spoon-feeding you your own claimed philosophy, when the root comment is generic whining that "the left has completely lost their mind?" Your sole bugbear is immigration (a stereotypical right-wing fixation) and all you've done is mumble about "more," until it's "enough."
You don't even know what valid criticism looks like.
Oh, sorry, you do eventually blame immigrants for housing and wages. Because scapegoating brown people is totes mcgoats the leftist approach to problems with capital.
Left has historically been trade and labour restrictive. This is why the left has lost their mind they are just making up things. The right historically pushes for free trade and free labour and low government involvement.
That's why you can't answer what separates the left from the right because you know it has nothing to do with immigration. You know full well I'm perfectly capable of having serious left leaning views and that I can also be against immigration so your whole argument breaks down.
What's wrong with capital. It's a much needed resource, both the left and the right agree on this. Unless you are a complete off the wall extremist.
Yeah, you have no idea how obvious you are. Good day.
You're all so close minded.
You think I'm something I'm not. Economically left and low immigration has historically gone hand in hand. I'm like that. So I have to make a choice.
I'll take long term gains of low immigration over short term gains from economics.
You should really look into what the left is about. Its more than just the current parties and current mental vocal lefties.
Dismissing cartoonish bullshit like 'the left restricts labor while the right just loves FREEDOM!' is not closed-mindedness.
My fat ass.
Every single post you've made here is bog-standard right-wing rhetoric. Fuck off with it. Your perspective consistently and loudly sounds like any conservative prick making up what they think the left criticizing the left would sound like, because they don't fucking listen. A mouthful of the most generic attacks on how they're "mental!" "gone mad!" "lost their minds!" with zero specifics and no fucking philosophy. Christ alive, do you know how hard it is to stop actual left-wing bitching from devolving into a sermon on theory?
Why is there an American on here so vocal about British politics? I guess in the American way you know more about foreign countries than the locals?
Of course they do that's their point. They want freedom from government restriction.
Here is a thought. Left wing votes are decreasing and right wing votes are increasing. How is this possible? Have left wing people been magically replaced, or have people that voted left moved to voting for the right?
If you make the completely logical conclusion than some left wing voter must now be voting for the right. Then why is it so hard for you to accept I'm one of them?
Just take a step back for a moment and actually consider the possibility I have switched from a left wing voter to a right wing voter. Now holding that position what would make me switch votes? Maybe just do that as a little thought experiment.
I have voted green and I have voted plaid. Both of which are left. I think green policies are largely going to be solved economically, at least the short term with things happening now. See Tony Seba, see my post history. So voting green doesn't do much. Plaid won't win majority so voting for them won't achieve anything. The biggest issue for the common working man (left views) is lowering immigration. The best thing for business and land owners is raising immigration. Immigration right now should be a left wing policy. If you want the lower classes to be better off at the expense of the rich and business then vote against immigration.
Do I think reform will win? No. But did UKIP win? No. Did UKIP achieve their goals? Yes, so hopefully they do again.
Me voting Green and Plaid didn't cause them to achieve their goals but people voting for UKIP did. I hope the sane happens again with Reform.
Also I did vote remain.
The bare fucking basics of leftism should be far more well-known to you lot than to us - yet here you are still pretending conservatives anywhere give a flying fuck about their stated ideals. Have you literally never seen an actual socialist discuss politics? On Lemmy?
Populism equals leftism, apparently. That's never gone wrong in Europe.
That's why right-wing parties want open borders, yeah? Oh no wait they're demonizing minorities because fuck you why am I humoring this. You're dumb enough to believe the promises of diet Nazis and wish them well.
Lol socialists. They are delusional. Can't see basic facts in front of their faces. I should have paid attention to the sub's you go in. You're completely brainwashed. It was apparent when you didn't actually try or want to learn anything from me. You made your mind up and you stuck with it no matter what I said. That is not a healthy mindset, you should work on that. Try see what people are trying to tell, you look at other sides.
Even know you can't even try and think about how anyone would ever change their mind on anything. That's not good.
Yes I have argued with loads. I actually have a degree in economics but none of them want to understand basic economic theory. Like you, they have an opinion and nothing else matters. Not other peoples views, not other countries, not other situations not fact. Nothing all that matters is their brainwashed position is repeated.
For the record, but I know you will live in denial. I believe in high taxes, high government spending, LVT, free education and healthcare, subsidised public transport, subsidised training, externalities in general, house building programmes, in the future UBI, money for families and teens. But all of that is insignificant the mismanagement of immigration the UK currently has, so I'm going to vote for stopping immigration. The other policies can wait.
But lol socialism. I'll die to stop that. What a terrible idea that is.
'I am too a leftie lefting leftist! LOL any actual leftism.'
You are not self-aware.
I genuinely laughed out loud. You're a fucking cartoon. You have no goddamn idea what you look like from outside your own head.
May we never speak again.
Haha.
Go back to your cave and your ignorance. I'm sure you can find people that will congratulate you on your ignorance and it being the ultimate goal.
Assuming you're not trolling. Can you please expand on what good points do you think they offer?
Getting rid of FPTP and doing absolutely anything about immigration rather than just acting like it isn't an issue.
Everything else is secondary.
to be honest I'm kind of amazed that UK voters would fall for the same obvious grift twice
Dumb people will double down in an attempt to present they were always right, even after they admit they were sort of wrong. If they can reverse that previous loss into a win, they were always right.
Yet they aren't going far enough.
People have been so horrifically mislead on this it's unbelievable. It's true immigration as a whole can be "good" (what good is, is debatable) but it also isn't wrong to say that it could be good to reduce immigration. Not all immigration is the same and not all amount are the same, grouping it together messes the whole thing up. The purpose of immigration as it is now now is to keep wages down and keep houses prices up.
Do you really care about GDP do you even really care about GDP per capita? Probably not but those figures are used to woo you. What's better having a GDP per capita of 50,000 and rent of 40,000 or having a GDP per capita of 30,000 and having rent of 10,000? With lower rents people have more discretionary income and they can go out spend more, grow the economy and it will create growth. Everyone wins. Currently all our money is going to landowners and business owners. Immigration is for them not for us. So you say we need more X workers. Okay pay people enough to do it. They aren't trained? Pay for training it's not hard it just costs money. It's not like the UK is at 100% employment rate people want to work but can't. It's cheaper to get immigrants to do it, but its bad for the UK.
Look at Japan low immigration, low house costs, low crime. They manage to fill their jobs. Yet Japan is doing something wrong?
Let's get some facts and figures. Here is an article about UK losing money to immigration.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/05/08/migration-failed-economic-growth-made-housing-crisis-worse/
Here is Danish data on crime.
https://inquisitivebird.substack.com/p/the-effects-of-immigration-in-denmark
Why are we taking in people that are taking British people jobs costing the country money and committing more crimes than locals?
I voted remain, I'm happy to have immigration. But what it is now and what it is used for is wrong. You really think net migration of over half a million people per year is good? Why is that happening?
That's not even to mention the cultural aspect. I love Britain and I love how it is. But I am also very well travelled and the place I most felt like an outsider and been stared like I don't belong is within the UK. Why are we doing that to ourselves? If we take a financial hit to train our workforce, give them jobs and keep our culture I'm happy to do it. Give us the choice. But I actually think financially the people will be better off at the expense of the upper class. They why we don't get to choose.
Whatever happened then doesn't mean we don't have issues now.
If those are your main issues, how are they any different from greens or libdems?
They have fewer of those scary foreign looking people
I have voted green before but I don't think they care enough about immigration. I think the economic boom in green energy means that the landslide to green power is already underway and effort should be spent in other areas. No one is really going to slow or speed up the green revolution from a global point of view, which is frankly all that matters?
Why would I vote for libdem?
Because they want to get rid of FPTP and fix immigration, your main two important issues. But it seems like you're adding extra steps now..
Anyways, reading your other comments here, you've confirmed what others already suspected - you don't really want to fix the root issues of immigration, you're just a xenophob.
I'm not adding extra steps at all. I want a party that will do something about immigration and voting. Reform seem the loudest in that space so they are likely to get my vote.
You are the one trying to convince me to vote libdem and I don't see what they offer. The party has never interested me and I don't see why I would vote for them. So if you can't give me a reason to choose then over reform I don't see why you would bring it up.
I don't know if it's your reading comprehension or you're just confused, but I urge you to re-read my comments - I'm not trying to convince you of anything, you clearly made your decision and it doesn't seem to be based on any empirical evidence.
You made some bold claims though and I'm here to challenge you on those.
So my answer is this... If you vote Reform, you're not a leftie. If you vote Farage, you're not a Remainer either. There are other parties who want to reform voting and immigration with better track record, actual councillors and more humane policies.
Well what makes someone a leftie? Because it seems we have different views on what that is and I'm letting you lay down the groundwork on that. I don't mean parties I mean as a concept. What cote views make someone left vs right?
Sure if you vote for a right party then I can see how that by definition can make you right. So if I vote right then yes I will be for the first time in my life right. (All other times I voted for a left party and I think my core right/left views are left. Just few exceptional views could override others and make me vote for a party that holds views I don't agree with).
In the Brexit vote I voted remain. What more can i say?
I didn't say reform hit all the boxes. You tried to convince me to vote for someone else and I asked why I should vote for them.
I voted for other left leaning parties in the past because of voting reform issues. As for immigration I think reform are talking about it more and the publicity on the issue is bigger. Therefore voting for reform does more for the immigration issue than any other.
I'm really struggling to understand what you don't get.
If you want to get rid of first pass in the post there are less repugnant parties than Reform. Especially considering the fact that their only MP got in the position because he was too racist for the Tories and he was only in the Tories because he got kicked out of Labour.
So their one main representative is a man who has no morals and cannot be trusted to tell you the colour of the sky with any degree reliability.
I said this the other day and I'll say it again because it's a point that people such as yourself seem unable to gork. If they win, they will win under first pass the post, instantly removing any incentive they would have to get rid of it. Given their tendency to lie in order to get what they want, I would be extremely skeptical of anything they promise.
You comment is entirely based on the assumption I think voting for Reform will lead to reform being in power.
Farage is a slimeball but, like it or not, he is one of the most influential British politicians of our time. I hated him for Brexit but when it cones to FPTP and reducing immigration Reform clearly stands out as the party that is most likely to cause an change in those issues. I don't think they will manage it themselves but voting for then shows what people care about and it continues to raise awareness. Voting for Green sounds like a vote more for green policies (which I am all for but I think the momentum is underway and there is no stopping it). Why would I vote libdem? I could vote Plaid which is closer to my left leaning views but I think we need more of a UK wide focus on immigration.
Who else should I vote for or what have I missed?
A man who has never once won a political position is an influential politician now is he? Lord save me from armchair political pundits. He's not influential, he's just scary to the conservatives, who by the way are not going to be in power anymore so he's going to lose any kind of authority that you perceive him to have had.
Labour are way more likely to listen to anything the greens have to say. Reform won't be scary to labour because they're not going to lose votes to them.
But feel free to go vote for the racist party and if they gain any MPs it will be your fault.
Brexit is the biggest thing to have happened to the UK in recent history.
You think that would have happened without him?
Like I said he's threatening to the conservatives he isn't politically relevant overall.
Reform aren't a real political party. Real political parties have to reveal who donated to them and what their vested interests are in.
Reform is the personal hype machine of Nigel Farage and exists solely to keep that pound shop Oswald Moseley in the newspapers.
I'm aware they are a hype machine.
But you can't doubt the effect UKIP had on the UK relationship with the EU. (Even though I voted remain)
I'm hoping they can also do something about immigration.
Standard reactionary apologia.