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submitted 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago) by Blackout@kbin.run to c/mildlyinfuriating@lemmy.world

I dont know why they have to lie about it. At $5/8ft board you'd think I paid for the full 1.5. Edit: I mixed up nominal with actual.

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[-] Carighan@lemmy.world 169 points 7 months ago

Shouldn't the normal size be 2? Given, well, the name?

[-] InEnduringGrowStrong@sh.itjust.works 172 points 7 months ago

You'd think so, but no.
Short story is the 'nominal' size is the size before going into a planer to smooth the faces.
Yes, it makes little sense, like many things related to construction stuff.

[-] cosmicrookie@lemmy.world 111 points 7 months ago

Yeah sorry. The tree was originally 50ft tall so we call the pieces that. But you only get 3ft

Is like buying 1200lbs steaks because that's what the cow weighs before it gets parted

[-] SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world 78 points 7 months ago

Better example would be raw vs cooked weight of a 1/4lb paddy.

[-] AmidFuror@fedia.io 28 points 7 months ago

Exactly. Because it is easier to weigh the correct amount before cooking than find out you were wrong after.

But you should probably be feeding Patrick more.

[-] SpaceNoodle@lemmy.world 28 points 7 months ago

That's a very small area to grow rice in.

[-] EinfachUnersetzlich@lemm.ee 17 points 7 months ago

Or a very offended Irish person.

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[-] maniacal_gaff@lemmy.world 24 points 7 months ago
[-] bhmnscmm@lemmy.world 33 points 7 months ago

And if you're a fan of quotation marks you could call it a "2"x4"."

[-] FigMcLargeHuge@sh.itjust.works 13 points 7 months ago

You have to escape the quotes....

"2\"x4\"" or use differing quotes '2"x4"'

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You did that on purpose, you misanthrope.

[-] lurch@sh.itjust.works 11 points 7 months ago

ah the infamous NaN lumber 🤣

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[-] captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 79 points 7 months ago

The two-by-fours at your local home center are not 2 inches thick or 4 inches wide...not anymore at least. They spent several weeks at that size though. The sawmill cut them to that size to stack and kiln dry, and then when removed from the kiln they are then milled straight and square. Used to be they would sell the rough stock to carpenters who would do the milling themselves, but then they figured out that the railroads were charging them a fortune to ship a lot of wood that was going to be ground to sawdust anyway, so they started milling the boards before shipment. Same amount of construction lumber arrives at the construction site and it took less fuel for the locomotive to deliver it.

[-] pearsaltchocolatebar@discuss.online 26 points 7 months ago

they are then milled straight and square

Lol. Trying to find lumber that's straight and square is a pipe dream these days.

[-] Wrench@lemmy.world 23 points 7 months ago

It was straight and square when it was milled. Problem is that the big box stores cut corners during the kiln drying phase, so the boards have a ton of moisture still in them. As that dries, the boards twist and cup.

Plus poor protection from the elements at each storage step, which means rapid temp changes, which also causes wood movement.

Go to a local lumber yard. They tend to do a better job at kiln drying. You're still going to have warped boards, but far fewer in my experience.

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[-] aBundleOfFerrets@sh.itjust.works 51 points 7 months ago

Lumber is weird because it has been industry standard to lie about dimensions since before the US existed so it’s just kinda a thing they get to do

[-] cosmicrookie@lemmy.world 28 points 7 months ago

No its not Maybe in the US? At least here, it is and has to be, very precise especially when it comes to industry quality. It is precise down to the mm!

[-] BruceTwarzen@kbin.social 25 points 7 months ago

Yeah but they measure in feet and cheesburgers.

[-] conditional_soup@lemm.ee 12 points 7 months ago

And lies, don't forget the lies

[-] BossDj@lemm.ee 12 points 7 months ago

Alternative facts, thank you very much

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[-] SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world 14 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

How does that work when wood varies due to moisture content? If they give precise mm measurements, only 20% of boards will meet those criteria.

All they are giving is the planned dimensions instead of nominal in mm form, it’s still not precise, it can’t be.

[-] captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works 7 points 7 months ago

Construction lumber, especially pressure treated lumber, is sold so wet I don't think it really matters. I've actually never tried to calculate wood movement for construction lumber because who the fuck cares? But for furniture lumber which is dried to between 6 and 14% moisture, there is a formula:

width of the board in inches x percentage of moisture change * expansion coefficient for a particular species.

Yellow pine (extremely common construction lumber) has an expansion coefficient of .00263. A 2x4 (actual dimension 1.5" by 3.5") that undergoes a 4% moisture content change will grow/shrink 3.54.00263 = 0.03682 inches, or just over 1/32". That's in width; it'll vary by less than half that in thickness. Wood basically doesn't move along the grain; the board won't get appreciably longer or shorter.

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[-] Auli@lemmy.ca 5 points 7 months ago

Bullshit. Wood expands and contracts so ther is no way you can be precious down to the mm.

[-] Thorry84@feddit.nl 5 points 7 months ago

That's why the standards specify the moisture content of the wood as well as the dimensions. This is even the case for US standards.

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[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 19 points 7 months ago

It's not exactly a lie, just a standard. Nominal board sizes were based on the unfinished lumber size. Another 1/4 inch is taken off each side to get a smooth surface that makes it easier to work with.

Here's an old image (reddit warning)

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fexternal-preview.redd.it%2F6Oy1DmXVFs0lyKxq9OmjaI-2gsPj8QO6joLlY1rB7m4.jpg%3Fauto%3Dwebp%26s%3D4fa73a2eaf8d96d4de26378be1ba9c404b210685

that shows the rough cuts of boards from a log. When they look at a log, they determine how many of each size they can get from it, and at that point, a 2x4 is 2 inches by 4 inches.

Why does the consumer need to know the dimensions at harvest when it's been processed multiple times?

That's like calling an 4oz can of evaporated milk a gallon because it came from a gallon of milk before processing (I have no clue on the ratio)

[-] Auli@lemmy.ca 14 points 7 months ago

I it’s like calling a quarter pounder a quarter pounder. You are not getting a quarter bound of burger after cooking.

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[-] gdog05@lemmy.world 6 points 7 months ago

I agree with this. Use whatever system you need or want internally, but there's no reason to force whatever archaic or industry system onto a consumer. Logcutters also use a 1"=1/4 system and that is how they sell wood. A piece of wood that is 2" thick is sold as 8/4. Not 2". I get that they have their system but it seems dickish to force the consumer to use that system. There could be a good argument for it, but I've not heard one beyond "what, can't you do math?"

[-] intensely_human@lemm.ee 6 points 7 months ago

but there's no reason to force whatever archaic or industry system onto a consumer

Sure there is. Look up the concept of a “standard” if you don’t understand the reasons.

Standards only work when they don’t change

[-] SchmidtGenetics@lemmy.world 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

It’s like a 1/4lb paddy being a different weight before and after cooking. They can’t tell you the final weight, since it’s always going to be different. Same with wood.

The woods final actual dimensions can vary, so they tell you its original size.

A 2x10 can be anywhere from 9-3/8thick down do 8-3/4 depending on how it dries.

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[-] RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world 13 points 7 months ago

Not entirely true. I lived in a house that was just over a century old. The framing was exactly what it said it was, a 2x4 was 2” by 4”. Same for all the structure. These were mill cut, but still pretty clean. It was WW2-ish and after that we started to get planed lumber that gave us 1.5x3.5. It wasn’t even until probably the early part of the 1900s that lumber started to become “dimensional”, as in the standard sizes we know of today.

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[-] Magnetar@feddit.de 45 points 7 months ago

As if american measurements have ever made sense. Look up how they measure screws or wires and despair.

[-] shalafi@lemmy.world 27 points 7 months ago

Or shotgun shell sizes and loads.

"It all started in 1840 when the dram was a common unit of measurement..."

[-] Asafum@feddit.nl 18 points 7 months ago

And they all had onions on their belts as was the style at the time.

[-] jaybone@lemmy.world 5 points 7 months ago

Five bees for a nickel.

[-] Throw_away_migrator@lemmy.world 8 points 7 months ago

Expect for the .410 gauge. That one is a caliber, because reasons

[-] AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world 10 points 7 months ago

It's a wonder they manage to build anything. They have pocket calculators dedicated to the building industry. It's surreal.

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[-] someguy3@lemmy.ca 27 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

The convention is 2" before milling. Milling takes off 1/4"on each side, so the result is 1.5".

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[-] kn33@lemmy.world 21 points 7 months ago

They were when the name was made, but due to changes in the manufacturing process, they aren't anymore. The name stuck, though.

https://www.popsci.com/two-by-four-lumber-measurements-explained/

[-] sukhmel@programming.dev 6 points 7 months ago

So don’t fret. The next bundle of 2-by-4s you pick up in the hardware store are certain to be the exact same size: 1.5-by-3.5 inches.

So they can measure precisely, after all

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[-] astanix@lemmy.world 13 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

It's due to the milling to square it.

You can get rough cut 2x4 or 2x2 or anything that are actually that size but by the time you trim and square it you will end up at the measurements sold in big box stores

Edit: I mean the size they used to be in store, not OPs version :(

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[-] frezik@midwest.social 5 points 7 months ago

It was done for largely sensible reasons.

https://youtu.be/WaJFudED5FQ?si=7j005FmfJVr_JQL_

In short, a 2x4 was originally 2x4 inches, full stop, but it was found that this size wasn't necessary for the strength being applied to them in construction. We were wasting lumber for no reason. They went through a few cycles of sizing down as the actual needed strength was understood better. The naming convention stuck, though.

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this post was submitted on 07 May 2024
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