the_dunk_tank
It's the dunk tank.
This is where you come to post big-brained hot takes by chuds, libs, or even fellow leftists, and tear them to itty-bitty pieces with precision dunkstrikes.
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Not an idealistic side you made up in your head, a side that actually materially exists in the real world.
Israel and its goals or Hamas and its goals.
Pick one.
As far as I'm concerned, unless we in the crackerverse take up arms against our settler governments we are complicit. I include all of the settler-colonial project in this, so I'm guilty too because I'm posting instead of dedicating my life to opposing this evil project in all its forms.
Am I supposed to not be held accountable just because I merely create wealth for my ruling class and pay into the imperial death machine?
You completely dodged his point to talk about some other shit.
From the Hamas Political Document
"Hamas affirms that its conflict is with the Zionist project not with the Jews because of their religion. Hamas does not wage a struggle against the Jews because they are Jewish but wages a struggle against the Zionists who occupy Palestine."
Now, what does this mean? One interpretation could be that they only struggle against Zionist jingoists.
The taking of hostages tells us something deeper. Were they all IDF reservists and veterans? I doubt it.
So, what is a Zionist? I posit that it's all of us who live and serve in the imperial core. Every single one of us that feeds into this death machine and our ruling class. So I'm a communist, what the fuck does that matter? I haven't done anything. I'm paying off loans for my trailer, I'm selling my labor for wages, I'm consuming the same treats as everyone else, and I pay my taxes. Am I not a Zionist, simply because of that?
Ok but the fact that they took hostages that are just "regular settlers" rather than active service members doesn't mean Hamas's goals are to wipe out every settler. And you are acting like if people don't side with the idea of wiping out every settler we aren't siding with Palestine. But thats not even the goal of Hamas. You just made that shit up in your head.
Their goal is to wipe out Zionism and that means pushing all settlers out of stolen Palestinian land, by force if necessary. I guess that is different in the sense that if they kill enough settlers the rest would probably give up on Zionism - I'm also certain that meets the definition of genocide.
Or I guess the settlers could just suddenly decide to leave on their own because they realized they don't belong there.
But that's idealism.
EDIT I guess I'm just assuming really huge number of settlers need to die to defeat the Zionist project. Am I being cynical?
Genocide doesn't require the absolute eradication to the last molecule either; the destruction of a national group through mass killing is genocide.
Which is exactly what you describe: destroy Israel by first killing lots of settlers and then destroy the Israeli national identity by making everyone Palestinian.
... so this conversation has made me realize "genocide" is an imprecise word. Israel committing genocide means mass killing and then expulsion of all Palestinians to the last child. Hamas committing "genocide" means protracted warfare where a huge number of reservists and bystanders die and then a reconciliation process afterwards where Israel's state is dismantled. Calling that "genocide" is technically correct and doesn't really match what Israel wants to do at all, and I don't know what to do about that.
if your politics have you conclude you can do nothing and deserve to die, even that you should do something that you then don't do, you don't have actionable politics. you have shit politics. hamas are not doing some 200 IQ definition stretching, they literally mean zionists because they need to go shoot people and need a functional definition of who they are at war with.
you having some martyr complex to excuse inaction does not mean it makes any sense to wish death on random ass civilians or literally babies. the point of whoever it was you read was almost certainly not that because you're white you should be OK with being murdered, it's that you should take action. when we talk about the attacks being an inevitable reaction to decades of occupation, that does not mean we think randos who were living where they were born deserved to die.
it's just especially absurd because you're only saying that because you know damn well you're perfectly safe and that even in the event of a liberation movement they aren't going ti try to murder you. you want to have these callous, unhinged takes and pretend you're applying it equally to yourself when you know that won't happen.
Are you actually on the side of Palestinians? You seem more like a bog standard online leftist that has done the bare minimum of recognizing a genocide for what it is and has taken that to mean they can just say whatever edgy nonsense pops into their head and pretend that's anticolonialism. "Oh, you can't criticize me for saying shit that Zionists pretend are the actual stakes of the conflict because I have right opinions."
You are not special here. You are not more outraged than anyone else. You are valuing the clout of appearing more "extreme" to a handful of internet leftists over the damage of giving Zionists screenshots of Palestine supporters actually wanting to commit genocide. If you're worried about what side people are on, first worry whether you're even helping the one you pretend to care about.
Clout? I'm anonymous.
Posting isn't politics. We can't help anyone here. If I was worth anything I wouldn't be wasting my time arguing on an underwater basket weaving forum, I'd be doing something that actually matters. We're complicit. If I were killed for it, I'd understand.
Excuse me? Do you think I was implying I'm pro-Israel or...?
You sure sound anti-Hamas, therefore:
Go fuck yourself. If you wanna smugly tell me that I have to be in favor of Israeli genocide to be on the side of Palestine, you can go die in a fucking cave. Call me idealistic if you want, you fucking maniac.
You're the one that wants to smugly denounce both sides as bad while upholding your imaginary side of the conflict as the solution. There are only two material sides in this conflict: Hamas and Israel. That's it. If you don't support the only material force fighting for Gaza:
yeah sure whatever im a centrist because i dont want either side to genocide the other you are completely fucking insane
You can't change shit by riding the fence. Pick a side or be content with never changing anything forever.