817
Rescuers recover more than 260 bodies at music festival attacked by Hamas
(www.independent.co.uk)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 09 Oct 2023
817 points (96.1% liked)
World News
39364 readers
2091 users here now
A community for discussing events around the World
Rules:
-
Rule 1: posts have the following requirements:
- Post news articles only
- Video links are NOT articles and will be removed.
- Title must match the article headline
- Not United States Internal News
- Recent (Past 30 Days)
- Screenshots/links to other social media sites (Twitter/X/Facebook/Youtube/reddit, etc.) are explicitly forbidden, as are link shorteners.
-
Rule 2: Do not copy the entire article into your post. The key points in 1-2 paragraphs is allowed (even encouraged!), but large segments of articles posted in the body will result in the post being removed. If you have to stop and think "Is this fair use?", it probably isn't. Archive links, especially the ones created on link submission, are absolutely allowed but those that avoid paywalls are not.
-
Rule 3: Opinions articles, or Articles based on misinformation/propaganda may be removed. Sources that have a Low or Very Low factual reporting rating or MBFC Credibility Rating may be removed.
-
Rule 4: Posts or comments that are homophobic, transphobic, racist, sexist, anti-religious, or ableist will be removed. “Ironic” prejudice is just prejudiced.
-
Posts and comments must abide by the lemmy.world terms of service UPDATED AS OF 10/19
-
Rule 5: Keep it civil. It's OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It's NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
-
Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.
-
Rule 7: We didn't USED to need a rule about how many posts one could make in a day, then someone posted NINETEEN articles in a single day. Not comments, FULL ARTICLES. If you're posting more than say, 10 or so, consider going outside and touching grass. We reserve the right to limit over-posting so a single user does not dominate the front page.
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
Lemmy World Partners
News !news@lemmy.world
Politics !politics@lemmy.world
World Politics !globalpolitics@lemmy.world
Recommendations
For Firefox users, there is media bias / propaganda / fact check plugin.
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/media-bias-fact-check/
- Consider including the article’s mediabiasfactcheck.com/ link
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
"I used to have support for the Native Americans, but then a tribe massacred an outpost on the land that was slowly being carved from them by colonizers. Now I've lost all goodwill for their struggle"
The indigenous, oppressed peoples proceed to get wiped out and the colonizing states take over the entire land mass
This type of violence does not need to celebrated. It should be mourned as tragic. Its perpetrators condemned.
But so many are applying fairness or rules to a conflict that has neither.
If you create the conditions for war and terrorism, do not be surprised when war and terrorism come.
You can still condemn the terrorists -- 99% of the people in those conditions have chosen not to go on a murderous rampage of civilians.
I agree though, by and large. Hamas is the problem here, not Palestinians, and Hamas should be condemned by everybody. Its hard to say that they're trying to help Palestinians when they do attacks like this, knowing full well they are associated with Palestine. The attack has certainly changed my perspective about them operating out of civilian buildings. They're using Palestinians as living hostages.
It would be in everybody's best interest for a global coalition to root them out and Israel to get a non apartheid government. But we all know none of that is going to happen.
actually there was ~1000 attacckers coming from gaza thats 0.05% of the population
The problem as others stated above, is that Palestinian and Hamas are often interchangeable. Just like Russian and anti-LGBTQ.
When the majority of your people support the regime, you can't reasonably claim your well meaning minority is actually how it is. It's not.
America had its same epiphany when they realized the vast majority of Republicans aren't just some fooled centrist hanging with the wrong people. They're fascist shit stains too, they're just quiet or polite about it lol.
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-middle-east-science-32095d8e1323fc1cad819c34da08fd87
I don't think it's fair to go by older polls. This attack may have significantly shifted opinions.
There's a difference between attacking unarmed civilians at a music festival and war. The terrorists should always be condemned, and you're painting with far too broad of a brush here.
There's a difference between freedom fighters and murderers.
I agree with your main point. The actions of the Hamas are abhorrent. But many here are equating it with the will of all Palestinians and that's simply not true.
I don't understand how these acts, which clearly will not help Palestinians, can be seen as the something they all would want.
Last time I checked, only fascists believe "the will of an ethnic group" is even a thing.
I don't think it's the will of all Palestinians and absolutely shouldn't be considered as such, but that's why the denunciation must be absolute in order to bring legitimacy to the cause. It's the same reason MLK would leave cities if rioting began. I wish it didn't have to be this way but too many people are unable to think with a healthy dose of nuance.
I hope you're one of the first to condemn Israel when they kill at least 10x as many Palestinian civilians in retaliation for this.
You know, in addition to how many more Palestinians civilians they've already killed.
Absolutely. Israel is the definition of a terrorist state. Imagine nuance
It's already been pointed out earlier, but casualty numbers do not correlate to who is more "good" or "evil". It only correlate to whoever has the bigger army.
Far more Iraqis died in Operation Desert Storm or the Iraq invasion than the US. More Afghans died during that invasion than the US. More Axis soldiers died than Allied soldiers in WWII.
I'm talking specifically about civilian casualties.
Please re-iterate your point if you think it also applies to civilians.
When Hamas uses civilians as human shields and hides in their country in plain sight, that tends to drive up the numbers.
Israel routinely bombs news buildings. The IDF routinely kills journalists.
Real mask off moment with the concentration camp comment...
What do you think raping and massacring people at a music festival is going to do?
That clearly isn't "fighting back". It's not war, its not even terrorism. They aren't achieving any sort of win, or working towards independence.
This is honestly a disgusting comment.
Nothing, just cause more suffering. But this isn't a bad guy vs good guy argument. The point that's being made is that extremism tends to be a product of its environment.
Please note that this is not an anti-Israel line of arguing.
Conditions in Gaza are terrible and many people have lost loved ones during their lives there. It creates an environment where extremism can flourish. It's not a certainty, but the probability is just much higher in environments that are severely deprived.
The actions of Hamas are inexcusable, and Israel will surely want to bring them to justice. But after that it's time to acknowledge that if conditions in Gaza are kept as poor as they are, the chances of this type of violence happening again are almost guaranteed. It's also in the interest of Israel to allow and facilitate improved conditions in Gaza.
There's a large population oppressed. A large part of that population suffers in silence, a small part of that population suffers and raises protest, a smaller part of that population becomes politically savvy travels the world and raises awareness at the geopolitical stage, a smaller part of that population is so angry they just lash out and do whatever damage they can to their oppressors.
This pattern is ingrained in the human condition. We've seen it countless times. In many struggles. If we condemn an entire population by the acts of a few, we turn the entire population into the most violent actors.
So the question shouldn't be do you support Hamas or do you support the Israeli state, that's a false dichotomy. The question should be what options are we giving the Palestinian people that are better than supporting Hamas?
Well, we definitely didn't give them the option to keep their homes that they got kicked out of
This is exactly why they're so surprised. They thought that Palestinians should just roll over and take it up the ass, like god intended, the natural order of things.
There's only an issue when the oppressed fight back.
They should have fought Hamas first before committing collective suicide by supporting them.
ah yes palestinians are surrounded by choices...
well put.
oppress a population until they fight back and then yell terrorism
Ok, but there is literally a post on the front page of .ml saying you are not allowed to even use the word "condemn"
When do you start the timeline though? The Palestine / Israel conflict has been going for 100 years right? Are you comfy saying Israel is the original aggressor?
Full disclosure: I dislike all fundamentalist religious societies. I don't believe in holy land, and I think people on both sides are reaping what they've sown by insisting they are gods chosen people. So I'm not defending Israel, but I'm not defending Palestine (and especially Hamas) either.
Obviously Israel is the original aggressor
Then please point to the original aggression
Sorry its just so rare to find someone who completely understands every aspect of a 100 year war and has all the answers.
So nothing that happened pre-Nakba matters, Amin al-Husseini and the attacks in the 1920's don't count because reasons?
Lol all my comments make it clear I hate zionists. Fuck zionists.
So you admit there's no single starting point for the conflict if pre-nakba events are taken into account, you just like to make an incredibly complex issue black and white to make yourself feel smart then? Its fine for Palestinian nationalists to take actions to expel jews from the region that became Israel, but because Israel formed a state to defend itself, they are in the wrong?
If neither side were fundamentalist shit heads trying to destroy their neighbors way of life, they wouldn't have these problems. When Arabs were the majority with the power the killed and drove the jews out in the name of nationalism, now the Israelis do the same
And both groups disgust me, and would hurt and destroy my way of life if they had the power to do so. If pslestinian Arabs wanted to use the dhemmi system when they had power, what right do they have to insist equal treatment now? Bunch of hypocrites
The world would be better off if Jerusalem were wiped off the planet. No one gets it.
So... then how about you simply condemn the perpetrators instead of making excuses for them and blaming the victims.
People that have been conditioned to hate Israel really can't help themselves can they? You must know how terrible it looks that you're trying to hamasplain this shit, but you literally can't stop yourself from doing it can you?
The world isn't so black and white.
Hamas doing unspeakable things doesn't make Israel the good guys in this conflict.
this is like me making a hole in my roof and then blaming the rain
That's a lot of words for refusing to just agree that murdering and raping civilians at a concert is indeed bad, even when the oh so oppressed Hamas raider thugs do it.
They aren't the oppressed indigenous folks, they're the corrupt rez bosses that suction off all the jobs and projects to benefit their clique, brutally disappear anyone who speaks out against them or even just says something they decide they don't like, and then claim any outside judgement is targeted harassment.
No, a terrorist pillaging, mass raping and murdering of civlians is not "if you create the conditions for war and terrorism..." despite the whinging of Hamasaboos insisting otherwise these monsters actively chose to murder civlians, actively chose to rape civilians, and kept actively choosing to do it when at no point was there any juncture where choosing to do so could be in any way construed as justified or necessary.
People trying to claim this is retaliatory violence make me fucking sick to my stomach as a Palestinian American. You fucking Bougeyevik fetishizers try to sweep this under some victim blaming rug as if us le oppressed global southis are unjustly oppressed when held to the lofty standards of "don't rape and murder civilians."
I don't want excuses for their behaviour, I don't want westsplainers telling me that it's fine and dandy for my kin to commit such heinous and vile acts. I don't want le revolutionaries leading global liberation from their $3,500 gaming rig bought by their upper middle class mittelpolitik parents to fetishize my people's struggle to the point where any sin committed painted in that struggle's colors is to be defended and qualified and whataboutismed like a vital supply route that will end the struggle overnight if the mere point is conceded that yes, Hamas raping and Murdering civilians is indeed bad and without excuse, justification, or proportionately causal context.
I want these thugs rounded up and put to Nuremberg Part II, I want Israel to drop the colonialist pretenses and join with the PLO to found a new democratic state with strict human rights protections, and I want any supremacist or separatist who'd challenge that necessity for any hope of a lasting peace to be dragged to the sea they wanted to push the other side into, and forced to go in and never come out again.
Because everyone who lives there has a fucking right to keep living there, because freedom of movement is a human right, and the land doesn't belong to anyone, and acting like it can belong to someone is literally the batshit insane nonsense that got us here to begin with!
dammī falasTēnī, 'annā beitla7mī, wa'anna sayim kitīr la'enton!
nobody said that XD
people just understand why this happened and only a fool would be surprised that an oppressed population will react wildly eventually.
Hamas are not the oppressed, they are the oppressors.
Uh... you're gonna have to clarify which side you mean here.
While it's pretty clear Native Americans were in America first- not so much with the current belligerents.
Both Arabs and Proto-Jews originate from the area now called Isreal.
Palestine was already a country in 1947. Not so much for Israel.
If you decide to START history in 1947 you might miss out on over a thousand years of Muslim aggression towards Jews.
I'm no Quran expert but people seem to talk about numerous passages where Muhammad went on one rant or another about how awful they were.
https://www.answering-islam.org/authors/roark/hate_jews.html
Also the regional conflict goes way farther than the 20th century.
https://www.profolus.com/topics/origin-causes-israeli-palestinian-conflict-explained/
*British Mandate
And Israel has been a country for the last 50 years. The Six Day War is already over. They lost.
Now, they will lose everything else.