this post was submitted on 28 Jun 2026
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From my very limited understanding, this comes down to the difference in how France treats religion. In the US we have a "freedom of religion" where people are supposed to be allowed to practice whatever religion they want. In France they have a "freedom from religion" where people's religion are not supposed to br demonstrated or encroach on others. So the mentality becomes you can go to the pool, but you can't wear that religious garment.
Congratulations on creating a secular theocracy, Quebec and France. Really valuable contribution.
Don't know about Quebec. But the "freedom from religion" French attitude is just being weaponised against Muslims at the moment. That Wauquiez is very close to far right.
Seriously. Do they ban Catholic priests, monks, and nuns from wearing their religious attire? Or, let me guess, is there some broad exemption for "tradition" or some such bullshit?
The ban is effective only for civil employees at work and such. So depending on where you live you can even see hijabs, priests in cassoks, and topless ladies suntanning at the same city park.
Also kids in school IIRC. Did you forget about that whole shitshow where a girl got in trouble for wearing some dress (from a fast fashion brand that was extremely popular with girls her age) because someone declared it was a burqa... then they were more or less forced to recognize that her skin color was the issue since hundreds of white french girls wore that dress to school with no issues.
In 2019 Quebec passed a law prohibiting public workers who are in positions of authority from wearing religious symbols. The law violates the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, particularly rights around freedom of religion and expression. But there's a fancy little mechanism called the "notwithstanding clause" that allows you to pass unconditional laws under some circumstances, which Quebec invoked and allowed the law to pass and withstand court challenges.
I mean, I would like to live in a world without religion. Sounds a whole lot better than our current Christo Fascism.
When you create your utopia that ruthlessly purges all religion, do not be surprised when the definition of "religion" expands to politically unpopular things that have no relation at all to faith. Right wingers already call being pro-LGBT "a cult" or "a religion."
"I want secularism but I still want overbearing authority figures telling people what to wear" is the silliest version of secularism. I want secularism but not the good parts, basically.
I agree that these measures are a bit over the top, but I don't really get your points.
Which good parts of secularism do you think are missing here?
And "secular theocracy" is an oxymoron. Theocracies require the belief in at least one deity as a supreme ruling authority to guide the state, which is not the case at all here, completely the opposite even. So what makes you think that it's a "secular theocracy"?
The part where you have enough social liberty that you don't have government officials telling you how to dress.
Putting aside that 'secular theocracy' is wordplay making fun of their attempts to secularize in such a way that they take on features of a theocracy, such as dress codes. I don't agree with your definition of theocracy. You could presumably have a Buddhist theocracy without any sort of belief in a supreme ruling deity.
Can and in fact have!
The whole Parenti essay is fascinating https://redsails.org/friendly-feudalism/
Buddhism is not a theology?
This is a concept https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheistic_religion
That would be good indeed, but isn't really an aspect of secularism.
Fair point.
I think that wouldn't make it a theocracy, as it's more of a philosophy or way of life rather than a belief in a higher being that has a strict set of rules that a state could enforce. But I don't really know that much about buddhism, so I might be wrong.
I would say it's an aspect of secularism when done in a sane way.
Well, I would say that ultimately all theocracies are that. In my view there aren't any deities, so all theocracies which claim to base their legitimacy on a supreme being are, well, wrong. They are really enforcers of cultural norms that just happen to have a belief in a particular deity as one of those norms.
What anyone considers sane is subjective, but if that's what you consider a more sane approach to secularism, I can't argue against that.
Buddhism doesn't really have specific cultural norms, though, does it? As far as I know, Buddhism is based on guiding principles (wisdom, ethics, mental discipline), not on specific rules as it's the case with theistic religions. So there's not really a way for states to enforce any laws from Buddhism itself, they can only abide by its principles to make their own laws, whereas theocracies enforce laws not thought of by themselves but based on things written hundreds or thousands of years ago, often with little to no consideration about ethics, logic or usefulness.
Yeah, I agree with you there. This is a bit of a weird way to go about what they're trying to do.
If Iran said they were providing "freedom from Atheism" everyone would realize how incredibly stupid this sounds
Atheism isn't oppressing and brain washing people.
Have you ever seen "atheist" and "sceptic" community and their talking heads?
These laws exist for colonialist purposes so you couldn't be more wrong.
I could be actually wrong instead of made up wrong.
This, and it doesn't have any symbols or practices associated with it in the first place, so what would one even ban? Atheism isn't a religion, it's the lack thereof.
Edit: Context, because a mod banned the person above for the laughable reason of "Reddit Atheism". IIRC, The comment was something like:
How anyone could take offense to this is beyond me. Do we genuinely support religions in this community? And on a Marxist instance no less? It seems like religion really is the opiate of the masses, including those pretending to be ML...
Marxism does not mean blanket hostility towards religion in all situations
That is true and isn't what I would support, but the comment above wasn't blanket hostility, not in this context anyway. Pointing out the often prevalent cases of religion being used as a tool of oppression and that it's all based on indoctrination is absolutely valid when discussing the motivation for France's measures. You can of course disagree with it and with the measures discussed here, independently of each other even, but if this is already "blanket hostility" to some people, they should stop viewing religions through rose-colored glasses. I mean, do you genuinely believe that religions are NOT used for this purpose at all? I have a hard time believing that any actual Marxist would see religions uncritically, even with the understanding of them being the way they are as the result of material conditions, and even less so as Marxists-Leninists if one has actually read Lenin's "Socialism and Religion".
And even if you were to consider it blanket hostility, why would this be worthy of a ban and comment removal instead of simply engaging with the comment in an intellectually honest way and possibly providing the commenter a different perspective?
You do realize that atheism is an ideology like any other, prone to the same manipulations?
And that the issue taken here is weaponisation of said atheism by bourgeoise, wielded by rabid libs against whomever empire deems an enemy, uncritically due to internalized chauvinism?
And that you can't argue that republic "kill all algerians" of france is suddenly having safety and prosperity of muslim women in mind, let alone that they'e realizing whatever piss dreams of seculairity they have?
Atheists can of course also be manipulated, but not based on their atheism. There's no organisation behind atheism, there are no specific set of beliefs that you could be indoctrinated with, etc.
I know what the issue is and as I said in another comment, I also disagree with it. But that doesn't make the statement by the commenter above wrong.
Any ideology can be hijacked and changed to serve an agenda. Atheism is a prime recent example with the "New Atheist" cult which turned out to just be a bunch of unprincipled Islamophobes who are on the Epstein list and have recently turned "culturally Christian".
I'd say that's not related to atheism as a whole. Atheism doesn't have some requirement of being an Islamophobe, in fact it doesn't have any ideological requirements at all. There's no guiding book or organisation giving atheists any ideas, it's just a subset of people who are atheist and mixed that with intolerant beliefs of their own making. You could compare it to Islam and ISIS, where one tiny group within this whole set of beliefs made up their own BS, but that doesn't make their ideology the basis for Islam. [Theistic] religions however already have harmful beliefs baked into their scriptures (i.e. Quran, Bible, Tanakh, etc.), which are the basis for the religion as a whole instead of just for a subset of people making up their own stuff, as well as an established culture independent of those scriptures that is often anything but tolerant and open-minded, fueled by the, generally speaking, religiously inherent lack of critical thinking.
So as I said, atheists can be manipulated and whatnot, for which you provided a great example, but their beliefs do not stem from atheism.
Marx did not consider illterates who conviced themselves they could read...
Umm so what atheist garmets would they be banning in this case exactly?
Mandatory hair coverings for women "to protect them against the weather outside."
Nowhere is any kind of hair covering mandatory because of atheism, nor to protect for the weather outside which wouldn't be because of atheism in any case.
No there's mandatory hair-uncoverings. In France. Because of "Atheism" as a shield for colonialism.
I'm just pointing out that Iran wouldn't ban atheism, it would ban every other religion except its own. Banning atheism doesn't make sense in a way, it would mean forcing everyone to have a religion. Like the state would demand you wear religious symbols and pray once a day? Doesn't matter which tho, as long as you have at least one religion.
I think these kinds of laws (though not this one) is more about setting boundaries and keeping a proper separation than outright banning.
That being said, I see the headscarf and bikini as a cultural symbol more than a religious one. I agree this law is more about plain old xenophobia.
I think a better example would be the uproar there would be if the kippa was banned in public or at the pool.
Tbh though, I'm very anti religion and I'm for banning the lot of it in public (crosses, kippas, etc), just not the headscarf because there's nothing actually religious about it imo. The burka is a bit intense and strikes me as clear oppression of women, but I don't see anything wrong with the burkini really.
By banning all religions the defacto position would be Atheism which would make it a competing "religion". That would make it no different than forcing your own ideology on others in the same way of religions doing forced conversions.
Iran has crosses and kippa's by the way.
Even Stalin's crackdown of religion is often defended from the angle of destroying the power of the Church. But religious institutions already don't hold much significant power these days so you'd just be destroying people's cultures.
That would be pretty stupid, agreed.
Except that's not how this work. What you described is specifically for representatives of the state (the french nation does not have a religion and it's representatives should not either) the citizens are free to do whatever they want and be as visibly religious as they want. Now, theright (including wauquiez) have a problem with Muslims having the same rights as the others but that's another story