SlAvA UkrAnI!
this post was submitted on 20 May 2026
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Zelenskyy didn't cancel elections, though. They're legally forbidden in Ukraine during martial law, which is only still in effect because Russia is still invading. If anyone canceled Ukrainian elections, it's Putin because the choice for Ukraine was either submit and lose elections permanently or resist and enact martial law, losing them temporarily.
Yeah, not every nation wants to deal with securing elections in an active war zone, especially against an opponent heavily incentivized and willing to put their thumb on the scale however they can.
Yeah not every nation wants to do that. Some nations are fascist dictatorships.
Put that right next to 'two things can be true at once' in the library of trying to conjure thoughts from nothing but pure passive voice.
Sorry you're not allowed to have a democracy because someone might try to convince you to vote against me.
Love me, I'm a liberal.
I can't believe you're genuinely this unimaginative. Do you really think Russia would limit themselves to propaganda? Do you think Russia respects the democratic process enough to not interfere in an election where getting the right leader might mean submission, annexation, and victory? The same Russia that was the origin for multiple bomb threats on polling locations during the US 2024 election? The same Russia that's constantly fraught with internal accusations of election fraud? That Russia?
And that's why democracy is for another time.
I mean... If the election has a really high chance of not genuinely reflecting the will of the people because an outside force is guaranteed to attempt to interfere with the election... Yeah, it's kinda not the time because you're going to choose based on the will of the invader, not the will of the people.
If you cared about the will of the people you wouldn't have violently overthrown their government and installed a regime of literal nazis to murder and suppress the population you pretend to weep for.
But then again if you cared about the people of Ukraine AT ALL you wouldn't be okay with them living under a nazi regime LET ALONE happily giving those nazis absolute power to decide when and if they ever give up absolute power.
So like all right wingers, I have to wonder. Where are you on the evil/stupid continuum? Do you espouse your views because you are fully self aware as a devoted nazi partisan? Or are you tied for the dumbest person to have ever lived?
I've seen a lot of claims of Nazis in Ukraine, and to be totally fair, there have been pictures of disturbing large groups around symbols, but nobody ever seems able to muster any genuine evidence there's a systemic problem. Everything anyone has ever been able to show me has attempted to make big leaps to stretch scant evidence into more than it is. I'm open to being proven wrong, but the last several times I offered the chance, I got the same load of half assed bullshit. I've tried several times to give the claim a chance, but it increasingly sounds like a tiny grain of truth blown up into a mountain of Russian butthurt.
dunno about scant evidence when there are so many different instances of ukranians with nazi tattoos and badges and shit freely availabe all over the internet
Oh neat, another shitty piece of "evidence" that doesn't actually prove the point at hand. I'm not saying it's a great look, but the vast majority aren't even in Ukraine, and given the height of the pins, it looks like there probably aren't even very many in Ukraine. If I'm wrong and there's a bunch of them in there, then it's still not good evidence since it can't make your point clearly.
You dumb fuck, the upper right zoomed in part is Ukraine literally fucking covered in them. I keep coming back to this thread out of fascination because you seem to genuinely just be a credulous rube and a distillation of liberal denial of reality, but this one takes the fucking cake and I had to reply again.
You are either a crypto-fascist "pretending" not to see the Nazi scourge as what it is you are just that fucking stupid or unwilling to confront your misinformed preconceptions. Either way others here have spent far more energy than you deserve attempting to educate you so I will just say again: Go fuck yourself. Take this hostility you received here as a moment to reflect on your pigheaded refusal to acknowledge the actual reality in which we all live. You have been given more than enough to educate your self.
The next time you post on this site should be a fucking apology and heartfelt thanks to all those that had the patience to put up with your shit. You fucking disgust me.
It's a NATO problem. It'd definitely be wrong to hold Ukraine to be uniquely responsible for NATO's legacy, and Ukraine isn't even formally part of NATO. If you want a full breakdown of the history of the NATO bloc's Nazi problem, have you read Michael Parenti's Blackshirts and Reds?
I'd rather actually get some evidence that Ukraine is as systematically rife with Nazis as people in here like to claim. Once again, for like the 5th or 6th time, I've openly stated I'm willing to consider the possibility if only someone can provide some evidence, and nobody can muster anything. I'm trying to stay open minded about it, but the fact that nobody can find anything more than a handful of group photos, it's starting to smell like a crock of shit.
There was lots of reporting on it in the mainstream media but it all suddenly stopped around... 2022. Huh
https://www.reuters.com/article/opinion/commentary-ukraines-neo-nazi-problem-idUSKBN1GV2TC/
https://thehill.com/opinion/international/359609-the-reality-of-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-is-far-from-kremlin-propaganda/
https://www.fairobserver.com/region/europe/the-ukrainian-revolutions-neo-fascist-problem-14785/
https://socialistproject.ca/2019/01/why-does-no-one-care-that-neo-nazis-are-gaining-power-in-ukraine/
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/ukraine-anti-semitism-racism-and-the-far-right/
Thank you for actually bringing sources. I've tried to find them myself, but search engines heavily favor current events, so it's difficult to find anything as old as these. I've probably asked literally a dozen times for sources in an honest attempt to engage with the subject, and so far, I'm FAR more likely to be verbally abused for not blindly agreeing than to actually receive information. Only one person before you has even done so much as to provide a couple names as decent starting points for research. The sheer amount of vitriol combined with a complete lack of genuine evidence was making me increasingly sure it was completely baseless.
This one makes it clear that the Nazis exist in too large a capacity, but it also outright states that some of the claims that it's a Nazi regime are just not true. While few in number, they do seem to be receiving a concerning amount of freedom and power. This one makes it seem like the problem is bigger than I expected but still certainly not at the level people here like to portray it as. I can understand the inclination to make a deal to set aside differences temporarily and enable what they perceive to be a lesser threat to aid them against a greater mutual threat, but I'm not so sure it's a good idea.
This one paints about the same picture, more prominent than I expected but still nowhere near the system issue portrayed by Russia.
This is the first thing I've seen that tries to construct a timeline that attempts to pin revolution at the culmination of Euromaidan on the fascistic elements of Ukraine. I've certainly heard the accusation here before, but nobody could ever offer anything resembling evidence of it, so this is interesting to see.
I've had a bit of trouble following just because the author uses a bunch of unfamiliar names and just assumes I understand them, so I may be misinterpreting things a bit, so correct me if I'm wrong, but it does sort of diminish its own message to some extent. For example,
They're kinda trying to gloss over it, but it sounds like the government was brutalizing protesters, and a more militant wing of the protests eventually decided that wasn't gonna fly anymore. Sounds about right for a faction trying to suck up to Russia.
This actually raises an interesting question for this community. My understanding is that the unrest began primarily because the president defied the will of both the legislature and the people to overrule an attempt to build closer ties with the EU and move away from Russia. Feel free to correct me on that if you can provide good evidence for that, but it's my understanding of the cause.
So you have a president defying pretty much everyone to build ties with a nation that the majority want to move away from. It seems to be pretty widely accepted in this community that violence is an acceptable remedy to that sort of situation. Then is it acceptable for the wrong people to do the right thing here? Let's accept the premise that the violence of the revolution was driven by the fascist elements. If the government blatantly defies the people it governs and the legislature, is it acceptable for fascists to help correct that, assuming they correct the problem and stop? Obviously, Nazis aren't prone to stopping when they're winning, so that's a problem in its own right, but the waters become murky, and I'd never really considered the possibility of a Nazi faction ending up on the right side of... Anything at all. I really don't like the idea of working with the Nazis, but which is easier to deal with later, them or the government you've yet to overthrow? Do we let the broken clock be right twice a day, or do we step in to make sure they get absolutely no power at all?
Ultimately, I think it's a dangerous game at best to work with them, so probably not the right call. Still, Nazis are evil because they do Nazi shit, but that doesn't make everything a Nazi does evil by default. I dislike the can of worms this has opened. I'll have to think on this more. My gut reaction says tell the Nazis to fuck off, but... I dunno.
This is the first evidence I've actually seen that the problem could be considered systemic to any extent. It sounds like it's not to the extent people try to portray it as, but this does sound like the sort of thing that festers into rot if left untreated. The good news is he only seems to have held the position for a few months, so that was addressed. The bad news is he seems to have gotten elected into parliament. I would hope that was for his aid in the revolution, not for his fascistic views, but it's still concerning he'd be elected. Somewhat understandable given the recent revolution, that sort of thing can build a cult of personality, but still concerning and a mistake.
Even this article denies the Russian stance that Ukraine is just swarming with Nazis, though.
That said, this does paint a picture of Nazis being given far too much leeway, which is concerning in its own right. I'd be interested in an update on the topic given this article is 12 years old.
This is one I have some issues with, primarily because of the sources they're using. Many are gone, which makes the claims hard to verify, and some of the rest are using sources somewhat questionably. For example,
The source linked as "vigilantes" doesn't mention anything about vigilantes. Still, the claims seem mostly reasonable, but they'd take a little extra verification.
This is tragic, but it does seem to suggest Ukraine is trying to do something about corruption and has been for the last 7 years at least.
The good news here is that Zelenskyy won instead, so the populace seems to have opted not to endorse that.
Like the last article, this one does make it seem that nationalists in Ukraine are a bigger problem than I expected but not the problem as it is frequently presented here.
This one actually seems to downplay the issue more than the others. It still openly admits that there is definitely a problem with nationalist factions in Ukraine, but it goes out of the way to highlight that there's little public support compared to other countries like Germany, France, and Italy, so this actually gives me a little hope that the problem can be cleaned up once things are over with Russia.
Overall, my takeaway is that the truth was closer to the middle than I expected. Ukraine is most certainly not crawling with Nazis, but they have allowed nationalists and Nazis to operate with too much impunity. I would be very interested in seeing more up-to-date info if you know of anything worth looking at. I'm concerned that this is a case of trying to weaponize a rabid dog, but I'm holding out hope it can be fixed once they have the stability to look inward again.
Thank you again for taking the time to find some quality information for me to look over.
Go to a search engine. Select custom date range (desktop mode if on mobile). FIlter to before 2022. Easy. Very, very easy. There are also article written about this exact phenomenon of the shift of bourgeois media coverage once there was a chance for liberals to feel righteous in being Russophobic.
You did not try very hard. I spent literally 10 seconds on Google and found these kinds of articles.
Because you present yourself as obstinate and combative. You say you want sources, but act like it's a demand or a bar for others to emet rather than a favor being done for you by people who aren't paid to educate you.
Then you need to rework the way you think.
The article leads with a description of neo-Nazis forcing a town to change their budget at gunpoint. Those neo-Nazis were given this leeway by Kiev, they were shock troops for ethnic cleansing campaigns. As the people willing to do that work against "separatists" (people opposed to their own ethnic cleansing), they enjoyed and enjoy high posts in military and interior matters as well as state cover. From the article, "Since the Crimean crisis, the militias have been formally integrated into Ukraine’s armed forces [...]". Azov was later integrated more than described. "According to Schaaf and the Institute Respublica, Ukrainian extremists are rarely punished for acts of violence. In some cases — such as C14's January attack on a remembrance gathering for two murdered journalists — police actually detain peaceful demonstrators instead." THey toe the line of "To be clear, the Kremlin’s claims that Ukraine is a hornets’ nest of fascists are false: far-right parties performed poorly in Ukraine’s last parliamentary elections", focusing on the Duma as the only seat of political power, whereas the fact they are in the ministires and have carte blanche for violence is somehow not considered contradictory of this. Again, electoralism brain prevents thinking correctly, politically. "In an ideal world, President Petro Poroshenko would purge the police and the interior ministry of far-right sympathizers, including Interior Minister Arsen Avakov, who has close ties to Azov leader Andriy Biletsky," now where have you heard that name before? And look who is close to him. The far-right is "not a hornets' nest of fascists" but the interior minister has close ties to neo-Nazis and the neo-Nazi future deputy minister. "as well as Sergei Korotkykh, an Azov veteran who is now a high-ranking police official." are you getting a sense for how political power is not just elections?
"As one Ukrainian analyst noted in December, control of these forces make Avakov extremely powerful and Poroshenko’s presidency might not be strong enough to withstand the kind of direct confrontation with Avakov that an attempt to oust him or to strike at his power base could well produce. Poroshenko has endured frequent verbal threats, including calls for revolution, from ultranationalist groups, so he may believe that he needs Avakov to keep them in check. Avakov’s Peoples’ Party status as the main partner in Ukraine’s parliamentary coalition increases Avakov’s leverage over Poroshenko’s Bloc. An attempt to fire Avakov could imperil Poroshenko’s slim legislative majority, and lead to early parliamentary elections. Given Poroshenko’s current unpopularity, this is a scenario he will likely try to avoid."
Hmmmm. WHy do you think they say the Duma is not a hornets' nest of fascists but then go on to explain how their most powerful leader is beholden to a neo-Nazi?
Who is Josh Cohen? What is USAID? Do you know?
Anyways I'm not going to go through the rest. I just want to point out that you are not being media critical nor understanding the content at hand. This is what pro-Ukraine, anti-Russia liberal propagandists were saying about the Kiev regime before 2022, this is how little they could work with and how hard they had to work to paper over contradictions. This is in stark contrast to post-2022 articles that were fully Kiev regime apologetic, seeminglyc ould not take pictures of soldiers without neo-Nazi insignia, tried to fully ignore the preceding ethnic cleansing years in Donbas, and literally, very literally, celebrated actual Nazis as heroes. And yet, your response is to try and poke holes and to buy the propaganda narrative easily with not one whit of critical analysis.
See, you could be asking questions. You could say, "Okay I read that first one and it seems to be saying X, Y, Z. What do you think about that? Am I missing something?". But no. It's confident, 'it's not that bad and doesn't match what you all are saying'.
Oh so we should talk about this different thing now?
You're the one who made the claim the Ukrainians are living under a Nazi regime. I basically said I've seen evidence that there are Ukrainian Nazis in existence, but nobody can ever muster evidence that it's systemic or anything other than a few groups that, while disturbingly large, are nowhere near big enough to represent the majority. I've tried to invite proof several times, but I'm increasingly convinced it's bullshit.
I see so you've decided to take a violent tangent away from the conversation that made you uncomfortable and decided to impose this new conversation where you challenge me to convince you of something you adamantly refuse to be convinced of and brag about how your opaque standards of proof have never been met.
So you're just kinda a piece of shit huh
Tangent? Your post was about Ukrainian Nazis. Let's look back at it.
I apparently don't care about them because I'm not resisting this Nazi regime that nobody can prove is anywhere NEAR extensive enough to qualify as an actual regime.
Again, I'm allegedly terrible for not caring about the alleged Nazis.
Basically a bunch of questioning if my tolerance of the Nazis is stupidity or evil.
So... You ranted about Ukrainian Nazis. That was the central focus of your post. I then claimed that while I have repeatedly tried to be open to the possibility, nobody can ever seem to muster evidence that it's anything more than a few relatively small groups, at least on a nation scale, being grossly exaggerated.
And then you act confused and treat me like I'm going off on a tangent to dodge some greater point, you absolute clown.
Yeah. You latched onto a single thing I said in the service of talking about the actual topic and you not only want to make the entire conversation about it, you also want to pretend no other conversation existed.
You're dishonest and pathetic.
My guy, your entire fucking post was about Ukrainian Nazis. So I responded and discussed Ukrainian Nazis. What the fuck do you want to talk about if it's not Ukrainian Nazis, and why didn't you just say that in the first place? If it's such a tangent, it's one you went down and I followed, but now it's my fault we're here somehow. And once again, there's still no evidence of the Nazis being widespread, so this just feels like trying to dodge the fact that someone actually called for evidence.
Do you think it's been so long that I don't remember my own post? What audience are you lying to? How fucking shameless. You're just fucking stupid. To try and pull that kind of dishonesty. Honestly. Fucking stupid. On top of being a dishonest fucking low life. Christ you suck as a person. Go the fuck away please.
I dunno what your deal is, but yeah, you seem to be struggling to keep up with your own bullshit. Two out of three paragraphs were about Ukrainian Nazis, and the third was questioning how I could be cool with that.
Honestly, this just feels like a pathetic attempt to dodge the fact that I was willing to consider proof. It was all fine and dandy to talk about Ukrainian Nazis, but as soon as the topic of proving Ukrainian Nazis are a systemic problem came up, you can't fathom how we got onto this topic, and clearly I'm just distracting from the real topic somehow by expressing an interest in having your claims verified. You know god damn well it's a lie, so as soon as evidence comes up, you vehemently disengage from the topic and try to paint me as an idiot and a Nazi apologist. Where my Nazi apologia was just to say that I'd be totally open to looking at evidence they're a real problem if only someone could actually provide it.
Fucking hilarious you want to call me a Nazi apologist for having the audacity to question an imperialist aggressor's narrative. It's obvious your fragile little ego can't handle getting called out for the shit you spew, so you result to personal attacks like a child.
Here's another chance to read my comment with the literacy of an adult. Try harder.
You could have just as easily latched onto my mentioning the ethnic cleansing. You could have just as easily latched onto the illegal western coup that stole democracy from Ukraine in the first place. You could have just as easily stayed on the original topic of conversation and responded to the actual fucking point about how the nazi government you love so much took away the mere trappings of democracy in that country. But no. You're too stupid for that. That would be too honest and in good faith for trash like you to engage in.
You latched onto the existence of the nazi regime because you have practiced being obstinate and intransigent on this subject. You made it absolutely clear that you wouldn't even engage in this tangent of yours in good faith by bragging about how no one could possibly convince you and refusing to allow a condition up front that would satisfy your requirements for proof. You're an intellectual coward.
And that's exactly how a nazi argues by the way.
I mean, that's a key trait of the Nazis. I figured it kinda came together, but alright, I could have been a little more specific and brought it up sooner, but I was really hoping today would be the day someone can actually find the Nazi evidence. Besides, if Nazis are the ones doing the ethnic cleansing, it should be trivial to prove there are Nazis, right?
Tried to go down that road with people several times. Never seems to go anywhere. Everybody likes to call it a coup, but nobody can prove it's anything other than butthurt that Ukraine moved towards the West.
You mean how elections are suspended because they're under martial law? As far as I'm concerned, that's Russia's fault. Ukraine is already bound by their constitution, and it would be extremely difficult to change in the middle of war. Ukraine's choice was to either enact martial law and fight back, losing elections temporarily, or submit to Russia and lose Ukrainian elections permanently. If you want them to be able to vote, get pissed at Russia. They're free to fuck off back to their own land any time they'd like.
Oh fucking please, your arrogant ass is just trying to cover up the fact you can't prove a god damn thing. You're raging over there like a child that refuses to accept their bedtime because you got called on your slop, and since there's no real defense of it, you gotta go on the offensive on me directly.
My guy, you know what evidence people have managed to bring me? A map of monuments in Europe, of which almost none were in Ukraine. A photo of one dude with a blurry patch next to Zelenskyy that they swear is Nazi symbolism if you squint hard enough. A photo of like two dozen dudes in military-ish gear around a flag that, while certainly concerning, is in no way indicative of a systemic problem. A couple more photos of even smaller groups. I'm not being unreasonable for not calling that definitive proof.
I'm not denying there are Nazis in Ukraine entirely, I'm sure there's at least some just as there are basically everywhere even if the exact flavor if Nazi varies slightly.
Hell, I didn't even set conditions on proof. I just said nobody can ever find anything that actually proves shit. They wanna show me some of the bullshit I mentioned early that proves nothing other than that Ukrainian Nazis aren't entirely extinct. Which, for the record, is a shame, they should be.
You wanna talk intellectual cowardice? Let's look at your personal attacks. Let's look at how you came unglued on me the instant I actually requested evidence of your assertion of Nazis in complete good faith, I was ready to learn something. Let's look at how, in spite of all that, in spite of all your rage over these alleged Nazis, you still won't even try to find a single shred of genuine evidence
And then, because I won't buy your story at the very first mention of it, because I won't take the flimsiest of evidence and run with it, I'm an intellectual coward and a Nazi? I'd say you're a fucking clown, but frankly, that'd be an insult to clowns. You're full of shit, I know it, you know it, but you just can't admit it, especially in public. Do yourself a favor and stop replying. You just embarrass yourself acting like a petulant child.
A petulant child gets told to return to the topic and spends multiple pages continuing to whine about how no one engages with your bad faith and declaring victory because your deeply buried post on a week old thread didn't get any replies
Do you not understand that you're stupid for this alone?
Oh okay. It's because the military rules the country. That's why it's okay to not have democracy anymore.
And in order to keep the country Ukrainian we need to prevent the people who live there from having any say in what "Ukraine" is.
Are you so fucking stupid that you're bringing up your deliberate bad faith as a POSITIVE???
You're not very good at making assumptions since that's not it. I've only replied asking for evidence to active threads, and I've repeatedly gotten responses "attempting" to provide proof. It's just shit tier proof every single time.
The military would probably freely give back control if Russia would fuck off back to where they belong. Either way, how exactly do you propose they run the election so that the parts actively being contested by Russia get to vote AND guarantee that Russia, who isn't even known for election integrity at home, won't meddle in a foreign election that might get them a submissive leader elected? I'd love to see them have routine elections, and maybe I just haven't thought it all the way through, but I don't see how this turns into anything other than either A. An opportunity for Russia to stuff the ballot boxes and force victory by submissive leadership, or B. Disenfranchisement of eastern Ukrainians to protect ballot integrity. I don't like either option, and I'm guessing you're extra not fond of option B. Probably pretty keen to let Russia stuff those ballots, though.
Almost. To keep it Ukrainian, they need to make sure the active invader with a bad reputation for election integrity doesn't get a chance to violate the integrity of their election. Since you care so much about their democratic rights, I would think you'd want to be extra sure there wasn't interference.
Okay, let me rephrase this on the off chance you're misunderstanding me. I'm not asking for a super high bar to be cleared. The bar is a tripping hazard in hell, and here you are still trying to limbo dance with the devil. All I want is some evidence that doesn't show me a tiny fraction and try to make me assume I can extrapolate it to a nation. You know, actual fucking evidence, not a pile of blurry photos with a grand total of 50 people in them, nor a map where none of the fucking points are in Ukraine. I want to see evidence that there are more than 50 Nazis in Ukraine. 50 may still be a lot of Nazis, but it's not enough to cause the systemic problems people in here like to claim. I am willing to entertain anything you may consider evidence so long as it actually shows a systemic issue. You can decide how to prove that however you want so long as you actually show a systemic issue, not just a handful of raging assholes with a camera and a flag. A few pictures of small groups of Nazis in Ukraine only proves that they are unfortunately not extinct, not that they are the widespread issue you claim they are.
Meanwhile, as I try repeatedly to engage in the topic in good faith, despite your claims to the contrary, you do nothing but belittle and insult me. Rather than turning me to your side, it only further convinces me not only that you are utterly without proof, but that you know the claims you are making cannot be backed by proof. You insult me not because it's genuinely deserved, but because you're desperately trying to steer the topic away from the fact that we both know you're 100% full of shit, at least on the topic of Ukrainian Nazis being the systemic, pervasive issue you claim.
Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert.
In other words, you can't really refute a single word I said, so you're going to imply I'm lying and bounce. This is by far the most vitriol I've ever faced for openly being willing to consider fresh evidence and change my perspective, and you've made it quite clear you're not arguing in bad faith. I assume you make the accusation against me purely to muddy the waters and make it seems like a simple "no u!" when you're inevitably called for it.
I'm not implying you're lying. I'm saying that you have a shameless sneering indifference to good faith arguing to the point that you could accuse me of avoiding the topic for not engaging with your tangent. You argue like a nazi, which I have commented on repeatedly now, which only makes sense because you are a nazi who defends nazis.
You're spending an awful lot of time and effort to talk shit about how I'm allegedly not engaging in good faith, but if these Nazis were rampant enough to be doing everything you're pinning on them, because recall that you said these things were being done by a Nazi regime, it should be pretty fucking trivial to muster literally anything to support your claims and shut me up. Just one piece of actual genuine evidence that there's a Nazi regime in Ukraine, and you'd shut the whole thing down. Instead, you'd rather invest all this time to belittle me and pretend I'm not openly presenting an opportunity to change my mind. The best evidence I've seen so far is maybe all of 50 dudes around flags in half a dozen photos at most. Given that asking for evidence of Nazis is more likely to see me verbally abused than to see me actually being shown that there are Nazis in Ukraine, I can only assume that some people are very interested in lying about Nazis in Ukraine. Otherwise, if there were genuinely a massive Nazi problem in Ukraine, surely its opponents would be more open to spreading word of the problem.
This is one sentence. You are exhausting.
Let me put it more on your level, then.
You spend much time talk shit. Could spend half minute, find proof, shut me up good. If many Nazis doing Nazi things, should be easy.
Why would I reward a child for their bad behavior by giving them what they want?
I have given you countless opportunities and reminders of how and why you're being a piece of shit.
If you want to be treated better act better.
Go ahead and gargle my balls and never reply again. Someone actually showed up, delivered a bunch of sources, and I learned the problem was worse than I thought it was. Still nowhere near as bad as Russia and many in here want me to believe, but worse than I thought when I came in here. I'd say speaking with you was a complete and utter waste of my time, but since the other guy actually provided the info, I'll settle for telling you to shut the fuck up, gargle my balls, and please never defile my inbox with your inane replies again.
So AntiOutsideAktion is correct and you're whining that they weren't tolerant of you trying to bullshit your way through the interaction. Oh no, you poor baby.
PS I provided you with plenty of information and you decided to entirely ignore it. You are treated more nicely than you deserve and probably should ahve been banned as a troll a few days ago.
Also, not really, his assertions were grossly exaggerated compared to what the sources provided claimed. The truth appears to be in the middle of us somewhere, closer to what I said him in my opinion.
Yes really. Let's review:
"Zelenskyy didn’t cancel elections, though. They’re legally forbidden". This is them pointing out that you're making meaningless distinction. That Zelensky presided over cancelled elections and you're trying to split hairs to avoid the obvious: cancelled elections for dear liberal leader. Note that none of these things happened under Maduro, so the original meme is on-point for the consistency of liberal democratic rhetoric. You then justified cancelling elections during war, implicitly ceding the point despite your posturing.
"Sorry you're not allowed to have a democracy because someone might try to convince you to vote against me." Again AntiOutsideAktion has your number. Your spiel about cancelling elections during war is obviously undemocratic, but you try to pass it off as the exact opposite, as increasing democracy, using ingrained Russophobic illogic. The Russians could influence elections! So cancelling them makes sense? Sure bud. You were corrected here as well. Rather than directly respond to this obvious point, you decide to instead focus on Russian influence of elections and implicitly how AntiOutsideAktion clearly doesn't understand it, it's time for you to lecture on that instead of responding to what they actually said.
"And that's why democracy is for another time." See how they try to bring your attention back to the point? This is becaues your previous comment was evasive. They are poking fun at you with it, but also you are behaving poorly and dishonestly in this interaction. Their treatment of you is entirely correct.
"If you cared about the will of the people you wouldn't have violently overthrown their government and installed a regime of literal nazis to murder and suppress the population you pretend to weep for." As we can see, AntiOutsideAktion is correct about this. As we have reviewed, the interior ministry has plenty of neo-Nazis in it, as do military and police forces. As you should know, a prior government was overthrown undemocratically, with heavy US influence, with people like Nuland having conversationsa bout who will be installed next. You should also understand, but I think don't, that a government giving Nazis that much legitimacy and power is itself fundamentally Nazi. I think you really don't get that. "But then again if you cared about the people of Ukraine AT ALL you wouldn't be okay with them living under a nazi regime LET ALONE happily giving those nazis absolute power to decide when and if they ever give up absolute power." See, the point here is that you should reject the undemocratic Zelensky regime. Hell Donbas didn't even get a liberal electoral voice for eyars as its population centers were shelled by Kiev-backed Nazis. Note that this split is along ethnic lines. " So like all right wingers, I have to wonder. Where are you on the evil/stupid continuum? Do you espouse your views because you are fully self aware as a devoted nazi partisan? Or are you tied for the dumbest person to have ever lived?" Now AntiOutsideAKtion tries to cut to the chase, because you are dithering and evading. Are you simply ignorant and foolish in your approach, truly believing this horseshit dissembling, equating antidemocracy with democracy, or are you knowingly lying and pushing these false narratives? Personally I know that it is both, because you have never responded well to correction and you know as well as I do that you are very selective in how you respond. You go on and on and on about your absurd lectures on electoral strategy, repeating yourself ad nauseum, but deign to respond to most direct criticisms. AntiOutsideAktion was correct here, they clocked you immediately.
"Oh so we should talk about this different thing now?" AntiOutsideAktion again tries to refocus on the topic at hand, which you are again trying to avoid. You latch on to the one thing where you feel you can have purchase, the false liberal narrative that Nazi influence in Ukraine isn't particularly large. Ignore the absurdities in increasing democracy by cancelling elections, let's talk about that thing you feel more comfortable with! AntiOutsideAktion has again corectly attempted to keep focus on the topic at hand despite your dishonest responses.
"I see so you've decided to take a violent tangent away from the conversation that made you uncomfortable and decided to impose this new conversation where you challenge me to convince you of something you adamantly refuse to be convinced of and brag about how your opaque standards of proof have never been met.
So you're just kinda a piece of shit huh" AntiOutsideAktion has become more direct because you have failed 3 times in a row to discuss the topic at hand, trying to refocus on the topic you're more comfortable being a little shit about. THey are correct to have done so, there is a point of diminishing returns for entertaining this kind of behavior in any capacity. I have explained this as well. YOu should understand it by now.
"Yeah. You latched onto a single thing I said in the service of talking about the actual topic and you not only want to make the entire conversation about it, you also want to pretend no other conversation existed.
You're dishonest and pathetic." AntiOutsideAktion has to repeat themselves because you agains imply tried to discuss your preferred topic where you felt more comfortable. You expounded on it at length rather than directly respond to what was saidt o you repeatedly. AntiOutsideAktion was again correct to do this, it is a good approach, though not the only one for dealing with dishonest people.
"Do you think it's been so long that I don't remember my own post? What audience are you lying to? How fucking shameless. You're just fucking stupid. To try and pull that kind of dishonesty. Honestly. Fucking stupid. On top of being a dishonest fucking low life. Christ you suck as a person. Go the fuck away please.
Completely independent of you being a nazi apologist (a nazi)." Oh wow would you look at that? They came to the same conclusion as me independently! And it's based on... personal behavior regarding political media propaganda narratives. Not even just about positions! About how you, you personally, behave in a discussion, and how little appreciation you have for simply being honest if it means addressing an ucomforatble topic (like e.g. you are obviously wrong).
"[...] Here's another chance to read my comment with the literacy of an adult. Try harder." AntiOutsideAktion then provides you with the xamples of what they're talking about and how they tried to refocus the conversation, as I have noted. You have now twice had this explaiend to you, though neither should ahve been necessary. You are perfectly capable of being honest and direct, you just choose to piss yourself when there is conflict. "You could have just as easily latched onto my mentioning the ethnic cleansing. You could have just as easily latched onto the illegal western coup that stole democracy from Ukraine in the first place. You could have just as easily stayed on the original topic of conversation and responded to the actual fucking point about how the nazi government you love so much took away the mere trappings of democracy in that country. But no. You're too stupid for that. That would be too honest and in good faith for trash like you to engage in." Again they correctlye xpound on your evasive behavior, how selective your responses are and how they serve your comfort zone rather than actually taking the person you're talkign to seriously. How many people ahve to tell you that you're deflecting, being dishonest? THat's not a simple political disagreement! That is a personal failure that prevents discussion and correct positions.
"A petulant child gets told to return to the topic and spends multiple pages continuing to whine about how no one engages with your bad faith and declaring victory because your deeply buried post on a week old thread didn't get any replies" Oh isn't that familiar!? They had the same experience as I did with you. Huh. THink about that. "Oh okay. It's because the military rules the country. That's why it's okay to not have democracy anymore." Hey, if the nazis dominate miltary operations for which martial law has been declared and are rife in the ministry of the interior, what does that imply regarding the state under martial law and who rules it? Nah, let's not think about that. A USAID propagandist said it's overblown, I mean look at the duma where elections have been cancelled and left wing parties banned! Oh no, this might distract you from the topic though.
">but because you’re desperately trying to steer the topic away
Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. [...]" Sartre quote. AntiOutsideAKtion has noticed that you follow the "I'm rubber you're glue" school of philosophical debate where you just mimic accusations when you have nothign else to do. Now it's AntiOutsideaktion trying to derail the conversation by talking about the same thing the entire time and reminding you of it 5 times! The nerve! I"m sure you truly believe that's what was happening. You wouldn't be so dishonest, would you?
This then continues for like 5 comments, just the same thing over and over again where you go on tangents and false spiels and AntiOutsideAktion reminds you that they are those things. You then adopt the exact same pretenes as you have with me and others: if only we were giving you citations and sources, y ou'd change your mind! surely that is the barrier to your understanding! Not the deflection and bullshitting and support for objectively awful things. No, it's everyone else's fault for not treating you like a hungry learner just looking for a good education. Funny how all of these people have the same experience with you.
In conclusion, they were correct the whole time and you're failing toc ope with it.
You are 14 out of the 30 notifications I have remaining. I assume the information you say you've provided is probably somewhere in there. That's after the dozens of responses to you and others in here. At a glance, just about every comment from you goes out of its way to belittle and demean me. I admit I've matched energy with some people I probably shouldn't have, probably including you, maybe even been the one to get heated first a couple times, but god damn, man, calm the fuck down.
I'm no longer interested in being the target for your abuse. I'll read what you wrote so far when I get a chance over the next day or two and consider it. If you have any good information you think I should look at, I invite you to reply with it here, and I'll try to get to it as soon as I can because, despite what you assume and try to portray me as, I'm open to learning, and I'm trying to do what I can with the meager time I have, like giving up most of my one day off just to try to learn a little from a bunch of assholes who'd rather berate me. I'm trying, I'm open to learning, and you're determined to make that as painful as possible.
If you feel inclined to reply or message me for anything other than relaying any material you find relevant, please go fuck yourself with a rusty rake instead. I'll try to give your recommendations an honest shot in the interest of maybe learning something, but you I have no interest in conversing with anymore.
Sounds like you should read more adn stop responding to comments. The fact that people reply to you is really weighing on you.
I have maybe 2-3 comments in this thread. Are you trying to say you are going to have trouble understanding what I'm referring to? This is... difficult?
I'm not going out of my way, you just keep repeating the exact same misbehaviors and then try to evade when it's called out. You have made that poor behaviro the topic by continuing to do it, making it the thing that prevents any kind of good faith discussion. So. Stop it. Go read, stop repeating yourself, and shut the fuck up until then.
Do you think I'm not calm?
Then shut the fuck up and stop advocating for genociders and pissing yourself when called out on it. You have nobody to blame for this but yourself.
Great does that mean you're shutting the fuck up for a day or two?
I have already given you a large quantity of good information and you are being evasive about it. Please stop lying about your interest in hearing "good information". you can return to my previous comments and respond to them in good faith when I've called you out on this, repeatedly. Every time I said deflect. Every time I sid evade. Every time I said avoid. Go prove your good faith.
This is your attempt at trying to learn? Being combative and condescending while evading criticisms and the evidence you supposedly want?
Stop telling yourself what you are and actually be that thing.
See how you seek control of the conversation, that negative replies to you just aren't right even though we have repeatedly pointed out what you are doing wrong. YOu can't even acknowledge what you are doing wrong, what people are saying to you is wrong. YOu have to pretend it's just big meanies. And dont' we dare reply to you with anything other than lists of citations and reading materials!
Cool so you're shutting the fuck up? Becuase there's a reply from you to me in my inbox just above this one, posted after it. Lmao.
Members of Azov and similar groups have had high-ranking positions in Ukrainian ministries, particularly after Russia invaded. Azov itself was incorporaetd into the Ukrainian armed forces so actually all the liberals at the top are doing neo-Nazi apologia now. Previously Azov was an independent neo-Nazi outfit along with groups like Right Sector (who also have various positions in ministries). Such groups carried out ethnic cleansing campaigns in Donbas, including shelling civilian centers for years. A blatant example is Vadym Troyan, previously deputy minister of internal affairs. Jesus Christ, go learn something before you talk about it here.
Liberals think Ukraine was invented in 2022.
Have you considered that attempting to discuss the topic is a good way to talk to people with differing view points and new information they can share on the topic? Maybe the fact that other people are aware of other sources of information and that talking to them can be a good way to learn new places to find info?
That said, after having openly offered to learn about the topic probably literally close to a dozen times, you're the first person who's given me anything that even resembles a good starting point for research. Most can't get beyond insulting me for questioning it to make it to "here's a photo of 10-20 dudes in front of a flag that you should totally extrapolate to representative of a whole nation". I'd appreciate if you could share any sources you have that you'd consider especially informative on the topic.
Notice that you ignored the content of my comment so you could focus on the part where I dismiss you. You have no interested in developing understanding or engaging in good faith and are correctly treated accordingly.
I provided you with specifics, with named events and individuals. You have no interest in discussing those things. Instead, you take this opportunity to whine and pretend that nobody is trying to inform you.
The other commenter engaged with you for ages, providing plenty of information for you to either (1) self-inform or (2) respectfully acknowledge that you don't know this topic very well and that you'd appreciate them spedning the time to compile some resource for you. instead, you were combative and presumed you knew better about, say, what it means that it's almost impossible to publish front line pictures without Neo-Nazi insignia.
You don't "appreciate" sharing resources. YOu didn't engage witht he resources I just provided you. Demonstrate through your actions, not empty rhetoric. Go inform. Go read. Ask respectfully for others to spend time assuming you are here in good faith, not punish them for the initial false assumption.
I bet this person would readily agree that the southern US states are run by neo-confederates because of all the statues. But when it comes to having a national holiday for regional director of the holocaust it's 'lalalala'
This is hilarious especially when it comes to Ukraine. History began in 2022 I guess.
It's also funny with Russia lmao. Yeah it's definitely the russians that are the issue when it comes to election interference lmao.