this post was submitted on 12 Mar 2026
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[–] Archangel1313@lemmy.ca 0 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

Ok. You clearly don't understand how the economy works. Canada doesn't have a central economy. The money comes from contracts paid by other countries that order goods from Canadian businesses. If you cancel those contracts, the money gets cancelled along with it. And that's not even counting the lawsuits that would inevitably be filed by the countries that just got shafted.

The Canadian government can't just "print money" to make up the difference, and then tell those private companies that they're now making different things. Most of the technology involved is not transferable. Billions of dollars worth of equipment designed for making those things, would be wasted. And then on top of that billions more would need to be invested in new equipment designed for the new products you think they should be making instead.

This isn't just some switch you flip, because the government has decided something. It takes years to make these kinds of changes...and in the meantime, all those companies that have agreed to deliver on their contracts are still legally obligated to deliver on those contracts.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 23 hours ago (1 children)

It's truly adorable that you skimmed a Wikipedia summary of capitalism and decided to bless us with this masterpiece of financial illiteracy. You are crying about wasted factory equipment as if the sunk cost fallacy is not literally the first concept taught in basic microeconomics.

Rational economic actors do not base future production on unrecoverable past investments because capital naturally depreciates and markets constantly undergo structural adjustments. And you evidently have no clue how international trade actually works. When a sovereign nation enacts export controls to legally ban the sale of a specific good, those terrifying breach of contract lawsuits you are hyperventilating about are entirely preempted by standard force majeure clauses and basic sovereign immunity.

Furthermore, a government does not need a literal command economy to force an industrial pivot. The state does not have to seize factories or print money to dictate production. Even under capitalism there are plenty of historical examples of driving industrial policy by altering the regulatory environment and targeted fiscal subsidies. Maybe you should actually take an economics class before aggressively lecturing people on the internet about concepts you completely fail to grasp.

[–] Archangel1313@lemmy.ca 0 points 21 hours ago (1 children)

Ok. I get that you're maybe trying to salvage a poor argument, here...but your understanding of investments is seriously lacking.

I've worked in manufacturing for over 30 years, and I've watched companies go bankrupt simply by making investments in equipment, expecting certain contracts...only to have those contracts be awarded to other companies. No one can afford to pay for those kinds of investments in cash. That money is still owed, until the loans get paid off. And those loans can't get paid off, unless that equipment is producing income. All the money spent to tool up a factory, would bankrupt the company that owns it, if it can no longer sell the product it was designed to produce.

Most manufacturers are in a constant cycle of investment. As soon as they've paid off the last round of purchases, they reinvest and upgrade their equipment again. If you don't, then you fall behind on your capabilities, and fail to acquire new contracts. You either keep up with the latest technology, or your company begins to stagnate.

So, if the government steps in and declares that a company cannot finish its current cycle...that company will fold. If the government even declares that company needs to shift its production focus too quickly...that company will fold. And the downstream impacts that a large company has on the rest of the industry, is immense. Sub-contractors would also go under if there was no alternative to the revenue they just lost. How would the government be able to prevent those losses without "printing money"? They would have to wave a magic wand and create new customers for those shops, out of thin air, or watch them all close.

Which brings us to subsidies and other incentives. All the measures you stated for how the government can "pivot", are voluntary. The government can't force industries to "pivot" at all. Why do you think the investments that the federal government made into EV's never materialized results, even after dumping billions of dollars into the effort? Unless you are willing to take full control of those industries, it is almost impossible to turn them towards other things, on demand. The cost is prohibitively high. The fact that you don't seem to get that, tells me that you don't understand economics as well as you think you do.

It is far more cost effective to invest in new companies to produce new products than it is to simply tell existing companies they can no longer sell the products they are tooled up for.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 2 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago) (1 children)

Bro really pulled the 30 years in manufacturing card just to confidently describe the sunk cost fallacy. If a company goes bankrupt because management financed a massive tooling upgrade on credit for a contract they did not actually secure yet, that is not some profound economic revelation lmfao.

That's just complete garbage management. You are acting like taking on unhedged debt based on pure hope is a universal law of physics that makes industrial pivots impossible. Your weird claim that government EV investments never materialized is genuinely hilarious and proves you have not looked at global auto manufacturing or supply chain data in the last decade. Legacy automakers are actively pouring billions into retooling their existing plants right now precisely because leveraging established vendor networks, trained labor pools, and permitted industrial real estate is infinitely cheaper than trying to build greenfield factories from the dirt up.

Your entire thesis literally boils down to claiming that when a restaurant needs to update its menu it is more cost effective to bulldoze the building and start a new corporation than it is to just buy a different oven. Maybe stick to the shop floor and leave the capital allocation arguments to people who actually understand how depreciation and asset lifecycle management work.

[–] Archangel1313@lemmy.ca -1 points 19 hours ago (1 children)

Lol! That's hilarious. You obviously don't know what the sunk cost fallacy even means, if you're using it in this context. It doesn't apply here.

If you have a factory full of equipment, and enough workers to run that equipment...how do you pay for that, without contracts? You can't just sit there producing nothing, and expect to stay in business. Even if all of your machines were fully paid off...which is almost never the case...you would still need work to keep the lights on and the doors open.

How is that so hard to understand?

When you're talking about sunk costs, you're talking about investments that haven't returned anything yet, and are unlikely to in the near future. That's not at all what I'm talking about. If you read my comment again, you should get to the part where I said, manufacturers are constantly reinvesting in more capacity. Newer technologies. More capabilities. When machines or equipment wear out or newer technology becomes available, they cycle out the older, outdated machines and equipment for new ones. This is a gradual, but constant cycle. There are almost always machines and equipment that are still being paid off. And as soon as they're paid for, you start the cycle again. Whatever expands your capabilities, is next on the list. Wash, rinse, repeat.

If a company isn't reinvesting in its own capacity like that, they cannot accept more work. They have a hard limit on what can be produced in a given amount of time. The only way to produce more, is to buy newer equipment, that can produce products faster or in greater quantities. That kind of equipment is very often extremely task specific. Those capabilities are very often not transferable to other industries. That means any investments made into that equipment would be for nothing, if you had to switch tasks. You would have just paid off...or would still be paying off...equipment that can no longer be used for its intended purpose. The only way to see a return on that investment, is to use it.

And if your customers want something new, you need to have the equipment needed to make it, before they'll give you the contract. Why would they agree to pay you for something you don't have the capacity to produce?

Again. How is that so hard to understand?

Your weird claim that government EV investments never materialized is genuinely hilarious and proves you have not looked at global auto manufacturing or supply chain data in the last decade. Legacy automakers are actively pouring billions into retooling their existing plants right now precisely because leveraging established vendor networks, trained labor pools, and permitted industrial real estate is infinitely cheaper than trying to build greenfield factories from the dirt up.

See, I really don't think you're understanding what I'm saying. I brought up that example to point out that the government itself can't just force a company to "pivot", no matter how much money they throw at the project. It's up to the car companies themselves to make those changes, at a pace they can afford. What you're describing here, is exactly what I've been saying about individual companies themselves reinvesting in their own capabilities. If there are subsidies to take advantage of in order to upgrade thoae capabilities, great...but those car companies aren't "pivoting" to completely different industries, like you seem to think they can.

Using this analogy, what the government is effectively trying to do to the defense industry, would be to stop those car companies from producing EV's after the companies have already invested in those upgrades. And you're here saying they should have just used all that money on other things, like healthcare or housing.

The bottom line is, none of those companies would survive a transition away from car manufacturing. Without seeing a return on that investment, they would go bankrupt. That's not a sunk cost fallacy...it's just how businesses work.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 4 points 18 hours ago (1 children)

It is genuinely incredible to watch someone confidently type out the exact literal definition of the sunk cost fallacy while screaming that I don't know what the sunk cost fallacy is. You literally just argued that if a company buys a specialized machine and the demand for its product disappears they still have to keep using it just to see a return on that investment. My guy that is chapter one page one of behavioral economics. A sunk cost is simply money that has already been spent and cannot be recovered. The fallacy is choosing to bankrupt yourself by continuing to run a doomed product line just because you feel bad about the loan instead of liquidating the asset or retooling. If nobody is buying your widgets anymore the bank does not care how much your bespoke widget stamper cost so you eat the loss and move on instead of throwing good money after bad.

You also keep harping on about how manufacturing equipment is magically locked into one single task forever. I have to ask if you have actually been on a modern factory floor recently. A five axis CNC mill or an automated welding line does not magically explode if you feed it a CAD file for a commercial tractor part instead of an artillery shell. Yes the specific molds and custom jigs are sunk costs but the actual heavy capital expenditure is in the facility the power infrastructure the automation systems and the trained workforce. The idea that foundational industrial capacity is completely untransferable is absolute nonsense. When major geopolitical shifts happen the industrial base pivots from building weapons to building commercial infrastructure all the time and they do it without just sitting down and crying about their tooling loans.

Then you try to salvage your EV analogy by building an absolutely massive strawman. Literally nobody is saying an automotive plant or a defense contractor needs to pivot to running a hospital or framing residential houses. The argument is that a heavy industry conglomerate with billions in capital equipment and engineers can pivot to building civilian infrastructure or commercial aerospace components. The government forces these industrial shifts constantly through procurement changes and tax incentives. If the defense department cancels a massive weapons program tomorrow the prime contractors do not just fold up and die. They reallocate their capital they bid on different contracts and they adjust their production lines because they are rational actors who actually understand how to write off a depreciating asset. You are desperately trying to invent a fantasy scenario where industrial machinery is entirely rigid just to excuse a complete lack of basic corporate adaptability.

I just can't wait to see what sort of clown shit you'll come up with next.

[–] Archangel1313@lemmy.ca -1 points 15 hours ago (1 children)

Here's the definition...

https://thedecisionlab.com/biases/the-sunk-cost-fallacy

By all means...read it. You are ridiculous.

And yes...as I said, I have worked in manufacturing for over 30 years. The machines you are talking about are great. I've done lots of 5-axis work...at jobber shops, where you are constantly switching between different jobs. At shops that are dedicated to specific production, the machines are task specific. That means they only run one type of part, but they make a lot of them, very quickly.

Most weapons manufacturers use both kinds of machines. If they're tooled for ammunition, they are almost all task specific...and you'll see rows of the same style of machine all producing the same parts in a variety of sizes. Your customers will typically buy as many units as you are capable of making. If they want more than that...you buy more of those machines. You don't use fancy, multi-ourpose CNCs for dedicated production. Ever. They're too expensive to operate and maintain, and it's a total waste of their capabilities to use them for just one task. If you had ever spent time in an actual factory, you would know this.

And you know that 30 years ago, they didn't even have 5-axis machines? Do you think that all shops everywhere all started out with those capabilities? Or, do you understand that companies upgraded their machines over time. You start out with old-school knee and column manual mills. Then you upgrade to your first 3-axis CNC mill. Eventually you add an indexer to it, giving it a 4th-axis. Eventually you upgrade to a 5-axis. All those upgrades require investment, and every time you make those investments, you are capable of producing more. More quantities. Higher quality. That's how it works. In another 30 years, they'll have all upgraded to newer technology that makes the current 5-axis machines look like drill presses.

Literally nobody is saying an automotive plant or a defense contractor needs to pivot to running a hospital or framing residential houses. The argument is that a heavy industry conglomerate with billions in capital equipment and engineers can pivot to building civilian infrastructure or commercial aerospace components.

Except that's literally what you are saying with that whole statement. Your 2nd sentence contradicts your 1st.

As for your argument that companies can just reallocate their resources if they lose a major contract, that is not true. Manufacturing is incredibly lean. Even losing 10-20% of your revenue stream for a short time can cripple even the largest company. If your operating costs exceed your revenue, you cannot operate. That's just math.

And no, it's not just as easy as flagging down new customers and selling them whatever you were already making. There's a transition process for all new projects. R&D takes time and money. Fixturing needs to be made, and processes need to be proven out and then refined. And until you are up to full production, your company is effectively hemorrhaging cash. Major transitions are the number one reason companies go under. Sometimes losing one big contract is all it takes.

Even claiming that they can just reallocate their capital is bullshit. You can't just cruise on credit indefinitely. You would need so much surplus cash laying around that you can afford to operate at a loss for an extended amount of time, while you make the transition.

And no...the government doesn't "force" transitions like this all the time. Name any industry that's been "forced" to transition like that. You're back to making the argument that the government even has that kind of control. They don't.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 2 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

It is absolutely wild that you linked an article you clearly did not comprehend. The decision lab link literally says you should not let past unrecoverable costs influence future rational decisions which is exactly what you are advocating for when you cry about needing to see a return on investment for obsolete equipment. 🤣

But the absolute funniest part of your rant is you confidently claiming five axis CNC machines did not exist thirty years ago in 1996. The United States Air Force and MIT literally pioneered continuous five axis machining back in the late 1950s for complex aerospace components. Just because the specific low tier job shops you worked at in the nineties were still banging rocks together on manual knee mills does not mean the rest of the advanced manufacturing world was stuck in the stone age.

Your reading comprehension is also genuinely struggling if you think pivoting from building military aerospace parts to building commercial aerospace parts is the exact same thing as a factory pivoting to running a medical hospital. One is swapping the end product of an established heavy manufacturing supply chain and the other is a completely different sector of the human economy. And your claim that heavy industry conglomerates cannot survive a temporary twenty percent revenue dip is just mathematically false for any publicly traded defense prime. These companies maintain massive cash reserves and heavily diversified commercial portfolios specifically to weather procurement cycles and bridge the gap during retooling phases. If a massive heavy industrial firm instantly vaporizes because a single contract gets cancelled they are a spectacularly mismanaged financial garbage fire.

Finally you ended the whole thing by daring me to name any industry the government has forced to transition. Have you literally ever heard of the Defense Production Act or maybe basic environmental regulations. The US federal government literally forced the entire global refrigeration industry to completely pivot and retool when they banned chlorofluorocarbons. They forced the entire automotive supply chain to retool when they mandated catalytic converters and banned leaded gasoline. When the government changes the legal requirements for a product or completely alters their procurement strategy the industry adapts and survives or they stubbornly cling to their task specific machines and go bankrupt. Either way the capital gets reallocated whether you understand basic macroeconomic shifts or not.

[–] Archangel1313@lemmy.ca -1 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

Wait. So you think that ANY loss of investment results in a sunk cost fallacy? I would ask if you're joking, but you clearly aren't. You really should read that definition again. You've missed the entire point.

A sunk cost fallacy is when you continue to invest in something, that hasn't yielded results. The "fallacy" comes from thinking that if you "cut your losses too soon", you will have invested all that money for nothing.

That doesn't apply to investments that have already paid off. That also doesn't apply to losing your business, after having invested money in it for decades. Those are just losses. Not "sunk costs". I don't even think you understand what "equity" is. If you're trying to argue that past investments have no current value, then you are even more confused about economics than I thought.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 2 points 4 hours ago (1 children)

It is honestly a marvel how you can type so many words while fundamentally misunderstanding the basic vocabulary you are trying to use. You literally just made up your own personal definition of a sunk cost fallacy to try and save face here. A sunk cost in economics is simply any money that has already been spent and cannot be recovered regardless of whether the investment was profitable yesterday or five years ago. The fallacy is letting the emotional weight of that unrecoverable past expense dictate your future business decisions instead of looking at the current marginal utility of the asset. If a production line stops being profitable but management refuses to scrap it because they are obsessed with the original purchase price they are actively committing the sunk cost fallacy. It does not magically stop being a sunk cost just because the machine successfully printed money for a few years before the market dried up.

And desperately dragging the concept of equity into this just proves you have entirely lost the plot of your own argument. Equity is the current market value of an asset minus liabilities. You literally just spent three entire comments screaming that these manufacturing machines are entirely task specific and cannot possibly be used for anything else. If a machine can only make a product that nobody wants to buy anymore its current market value is essentially the price of scrap metal. You cannot confidently claim an asset is completely useless for any other purpose and then turn around and cry about its massive retained equity. Either the machine has alternative market value and the company can liquidate it to fund a transition or it is a completely unrecoverable sunk cost that rational management needs to write off immediately. Pick a lane because right now you are just completely embarrassing yourself by arguing both sides of a basic financial contradiction.

[–] Archangel1313@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Oh, my God. You're doubling down? Seriously buddy, you are absolutley ridiculous. It's been pretty obvious for the last couple of exchasnges that you aren't arguing in good faith, but this is just bizarre. You have a fundamental misunderstanding about this concept.

The sunk cost fallacy is specifically in regards to a BAD investment. Not ANY past investment. If you have been investing in something that is profitable...then holding onto that investment, is good. It is considered an ASSET. It holds VALUE. Losing that asset is bad. It doesn't matter how long you've had that asset, or how long it's been since you paid it off.

But when you have been investing in something that is NOT profitable...meaning that it has never yielded a return on your investment, but you continue to pour more time, money and resources into it, despite that fact...that is a "sunk cost fallacy". This is not my "made up definition". Again, you should try READING the defintion I provided...or even just anything on the subject.

It's absolutely insane that you are now quoting my ENTIRE point back to me, about updgrading your equipment when it becomes outdated, in an attempt to claim that I am the one who doesn't understand this concept. What. The. Actual. Fuck. You have been arguing against me for saying that this entire time, by barking about "sunk cost fallacies". You haven't even understood a single thing that I've been saying, because you have no idea what you are talking about.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 hours ago* (last edited 2 hours ago) (1 children)

It's breathtaking to watch you confidently dig this hole all the way to the center of the earth. You're fundamentally confusing the historical profitability of an asset with its current marginal utility which is literal day one freshman economics. Yes a machine that makes money is an asset but the absolute second the market demand for that specific product drops to zero that machine becomes a liability if it costs money to maintain or prevents you from retooling.

A sunk cost is just a past unrecoverable expense period. It does not magically require the investment to have been a failure from day one for the fallacy to apply. If you refuse to scrap an obsolete machine today simply because you paid a million dollars for it ten years ago you are committing the sunk cost fallacy regardless of how much money it printed in the interim. The fact that you cannot grasp that a formerly profitable asset can transition into a sunk cost trap the moment market conditions change explains perfectly why you think businesses simply evaporate when a single contract ends. Please actually read an economics textbook instead of furiously misinterpreting the first paragraph of a website you hastily googled to win an argument like the lost reddit debate bro that you are. 🤣

[–] Archangel1313@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Dude. You are embarrassing yourself, here. I am embarrassed for you. I can't tell if you're just too stubborn to admit that you don't know what you're talking about, or just too stupid to realize it.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

sounds like you're doing a lot of projecting there kiddo

[–] Archangel1313@lemmy.ca -1 points 2 hours ago (1 children)

Sure, buddy. Feel free to go back and actually read this entire exchange again, whenever you're ready. Except instead of trying desperately to make strawman arguments out of the details...try and actually understand what I'm saying.

And for real...do your homework on what sunk cost fallacy is. It isn't hard.

[–] yogthos@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 hour ago

should really follow your own advice lmfao, since you desperately need the last word, I'm going to end here and let you make a clown of yourself for one last time

bye