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submitted 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago) by Walk_On@hexbear.net to c/the_dunk_tank@hexbear.net

Don’t know why he wastes time criticizing him since JT doesn’t do anything wrong. Also really funny that him and other commenters are complaining about The Deprogram being like Chapo.

Upon deeper research, it turns out Day used to post on the subreddit to dunk on BadEmpanada, which is funny since Day himself has strong BadEmpanada vibes.

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[-] ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Dont really want anymore pings over this

[-] commiewithoutorgans@hexbear.net 25 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There is a huge difference between "public debate" and "defend your position in public [by writing what you think I'm wrong about or why you're right]". Day writes a ton of theory and is outspoken about his views and wants people to either take them seriously by challenging or engaging with them. The bullshit of "agree to disagree" gets us nowhere. I think publicly posting is fine as a medium for such

Debate shit is when you wanna do a quick fire bullshit thing. Day wants JT to write out where he disagrees so they can resolve or one be shown to be in error. That is good. Resolving differences has to happen.

[-] Nakoichi@hexbear.net 9 points 1 year ago

Day wants JT to write out where he disagrees so they can resolve or one be shown to be in error.

And yet he doesn't really write out any thoughtful critique of his own to start such a good faith conversation. He simply comes off like he is offended at the mere mention of MMT (something I also fucking hate talking about because it's bullshit but that is neither here nor there).

If he truly wanted to engage with the content he is complaining about it would be better done in an actual article and not on twitter of all places. Especially Musk's twitter.

[-] commiewithoutorgans@hexbear.net 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I found the descriptions he gave and references to other works handling similar positions plenty to begin the conversation. I found it to be plenty good enough to dismiss MMT, too, though I already had my issues with it. JT should defend it if he finds those not enough to dismiss MMT, and make that argument then. I don't think MMT deserves the time for expanded dismissal if Marx handled similar shit centuries ago well enough

I do think though that I agree about twitter being not great, but a public place to handle such things doesn't exist with as wide of reach unfortunately. Go and write articles in Jacobin or International, but who reads that anymore? We have to deal with that at the moment, and writing articles on your own site and referencing it on twitter seems the best option I've seen so far. And that's what Roderic does

[-] ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Dont really want anymore pings over this

[-] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 17 points 1 year ago

You would call Poverty of Philosophy debatebro shit if it was published today. I recommend logging off to attempt to see things in the lens of public discussion and not the circus performances people have on Twitch and Jordan Peterson's patreon.

[-] Tachanka@hexbear.net 12 points 1 year ago

Reminds me how Marx wrote Value Price and Profit to publicly dunk on an old Owenist in the first international, and give people a preview of Capital Volume 1.

[-] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Don't forget all of Anti-Duehring being entirely a refutation of Duehring used as an opportunity to expound upon a variety of subjects. Using the preface to Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, which is part of that project:

As is well known, we Germans are of a terribly ponderous Gründlichkeit, [. . .] Whenever any one of us expounds what he considers a new doctrine, he has first to elaborate it into an all comprising system. He has to prove that both the first principles of logic and the fundamental laws of the universe had existed from all eternity for no other purpose than to ultimately lead to this newly discovered, crowning theory. And Dr. Dühring, in this respect, was quite up to the national mark. Nothing less than a complete System of Philosophy, mental, moral, natural, and historical, a complete System of Political Economy and Socialism ; and, finally, a Critical History of Political Economy—three big volumes in octavo,17 heavy extrinsically and intrinsically, three army corps of arguments mobilized against all previous philosophers and economists in general, and against Marx in particular—in fact, an attempt at a complete “revolution in science”— these were what I should have to tackle. I had to treat of all and every possible subject, from the concepts of time and space to bimetallism, from the eternity of matter and motion to the perishable nature of moral ideas; from Darwin’s natural selection to the education of youth in a future society. Anyhow, the systematic comprehensiveness of my opponent gave me the opportunity of developing, in opposition to him, and in a more connected form than had previously been done, the views held by Marx and myself on this great variety of subjects. And that was the principal reason which made me undertake this otherwise ungrateful task.

[-] Tachanka@hexbear.net 15 points 1 year ago

I actually thought about also bringing up Anti Duhring but I figured I only needed 1 example lol. but while we're on the subject the entirety of german ideology is just Marx yelling about stirner-cool and calling him "Sancho Panza" and "Saint Max" lol

[-] ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml 3 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Dont really want anymore pings over this

[-] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 9 points 1 year ago

Day did not insist on having the conversation on Twitter that I had seen. Perhaps I missed where he did, in which case, would you mind pointing it out to me?

However, you will notice that Poverty of Philosophy was not, in fact, a letter written privately to Proudhon, but was published and distributed to the public so that the people who read Philosophy of Poverty could read Marx's rebuttal of it. Refuting a public figure in private is not a very useful practice.

To my knowledge, Day insisted only that the response be public and not on the specific medium where JT happened to respond initially, and if JT said he'd, I don't know, make a video or write an essay of his own or whatever, Day would accept that just as readily.

[-] ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Dont really want anymore pings over this

[-] Tachanka@hexbear.net 11 points 1 year ago

Whether JT (or anybody for that matter) is intentionally or unintentionally promoting imperialism shouldn't matter. It is good to criticize a bad idea even when the person putting it forward has a good track record.

[-] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 8 points 1 year ago

No worries about the double reply. I think maybe after combing through enough of JT's oeuvre he could come to that conclusion but, not to put too fine a point on it, a lot of what JT says is reasonably mistakable for being "and then we have peaceful welfare co-ops"-style social-chauvinist pablum that doesn't adequately oppose the exploitation by nordic-style states.

[-] ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Dont really want anymore pings over this

[-] GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 8 points 1 year ago

The issue with this strategy that should be most immediately apparent is that bad faith can be difficult to evaluate and we've had well over a decade of perfecting how to string someone along in DMs indefinitely. A hypothetical Prudent and Polite Roderic Day can see JT publishing and popularizing reactionary hogwash, try to engage in DMs, and be stuck at that step for a week or a month because JT drags his feet responding, insists on tediously litigating minor points, misinterprets Days' assertions, etc., and if Day pulls the trigger at any point, JT can go "Woah, hey, what happened Rod?! We were having a private discussion and then you just publish it because I have a work schedule that I also need to keep up with? Are we communists or drama-mongers here?" just like he did anyway with the public statement. JT was already responding in bad faith in the two tweets we already saw ("passive aggressive", etc), how much should Day bank on JT behaving in an upstanding way if things are already going this poorly for The Discourse between them?

[-] ImOnADiet@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Dont really want anymore pings over this

this post was submitted on 23 Sep 2023
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