The capitalist mode of production is founded on the M-C-M' circuit. The state, by contrast, is not, because as the sovereign, it is the issuer of money. It doesn’t need to make a profit from its commodities or services because it creates money by fiat[1]. Therefore the capitalist mode of production is exclusive to the private sector.

[+] Juice@midwest.social -7 points 1 day ago (2 children)

It only confuses if you decide to use a non-Leninist definition of the state. The state exists to manage class contradictions. Are the classes being managed different than in capitalist states? No, but their political class has a different character than in the west. The party is larger, more powerful, tangible and broad though still operating with bourgeois principles, interests and aspirations. The bureaucratic class sustains the bourgeois class, gives concessions to the working class, maintains a petite bourg middle class, as a project that obfuscates the capitalist class in opposition to, and exploiting, a working and toiling classes.

Is the "socialist state" withering away? No, it is growing more powerful. IMO an ideology more concerned with socialist states over socialist internationalism is the ideology of state bureaucrats, not proletarian revolutionaries. Which makes sense since the worker/peasant revolution failed in China, their politics are more Dengist than Maoist, the party even rejects the concept of class antagonism! I don't see how they can even be considered Marxist.

The bureaucratic class uses the state apparatus to sustain the bourgeois class, while the toiling classes are fundamentally proletarian, that is, despite social democratic concessions they still have nothing to sell the capitalists but their labor. People are heavily exploited in "special economic zones". Communal land is becoming more privatized, not less. The rural agrarian population is insular and petty bourgeois, the urban middle classes are becoming less political but more aspirational and individualistic. Housing, while abundant, is still commodified.

The party uses the state to maintain capitalist relations. State capitalist. The only thing confusing is that in our world there is always a state protecting the bourgeois class. So it's really just capitalism, like social democracy. So maybe "party capitalist" is more accurate. I'm not too invested about slandering China, but your criticism is the same disingenuous attitude that insists "authoritarian" is meaningless. The term exists, people use it in political discourse, not engaging with it, and pretending it doesn't exist is intentionally obtuse. No Marxist should concern themselves with epistemological word games.

"Authoritarian" can be concretely defined and understood. Overlooking the self criticism of, "it is very convenient that I refuse to believe in the existence of a verifiable phenomenon that is used to criticize me," trying to prove the phenomenon is fake rather than engaging with it as criticism, betrays the socialist principle of ruthless criticism, as well as Marxist materialism. No one believes you except those in your own camp. It's sectarian idealism.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 11 points 1 day ago (1 children)

It only confuses if you decide to use a non-Leninist definition of the state. The state exists to manage class contradictions. Are the classes being managed different than in capitalist states? No, but their political class has a different character than in the west. The party is larger, more powerful, tangible and broad though still operating with bourgeois principles, interests and aspirations. The bureaucratic class sustains the bourgeois class, gives concessions to the working class, maintains a petite bourg middle class, as a project that obfuscates the capitalist class in opposition to, and exploiting, a working and toiling classes.

The state exists to establish and maintain supremacy of one class over the others, and in China that class is the proletariat. The communist party is large, indeed, but it isn't "operating with bourgeois principles," whatever that means. There is no obfuscation of class struggle.

Is the “socialist state” withering away? No, it is growing more powerful. IMO an ideology more concerned with socialist states over socialist internationalism is the ideology of state bureaucrats, not proletarian revolutionaries. Which makes sense since the worker/peasant revolution failed in China, their politics are more Dengist than Maoist, the party even rejects the concept of class antagonism! I don’t see how they can even be considered Marxist.

There are a few key errors here.

The state as a state that cannot but whither away already exists, it cannot complete that process without the death of imperialism and the global transition to communism.
China is very internationalist, just not millitantly so. No country has done more to undermine the economic basis of imperialism in the 21st century than China.
The revolution did not fail.
China upholds Mao and Deng, but in fact sees Xi Jinping Thought as the same category as Mao Zedong Thought while keeping Deng Xiapoing Theory at the level of theory, not thought. It's Xi Jinping Thought that is seen as the genuine advancement.
The CPC does not reject class struggle. The CPC rejects the Gang of Four's vulgarization of class struggle over all else.

The fact that there are five critical errors in this paragraph alone speaks volumes.

The bureaucratic class uses the state apparatus to sustain the bourgeois class, while the toiling classes are fundamentally proletarian, that is, despite social democratic concessions they still have nothing to sell the capitalists but their labor. People are heavily exploited in “special economic zones”. Communal land is becoming more privatized, not less. The rural agrarian population is insular and petty bourgeois, the urban middle classes are becoming less political but more aspirational and individualistic. Housing, while abundant, is still commodified.

There is no "bureaucratic class." Administration is fully in line with proletarian responsibilities. The rest of your comment is indicative of early socialism, which is a long and drawn out process, not of capitalism.

The party uses the state to maintain capitalist relations. State capitalist. The only thing confusing is that in our world there is always a state protecting the bourgeois class. So it’s really just capitalism, like social democracy. So maybe “party capitalist” is more accurate. I’m not too invested about slandering China, but your criticism is the same disingenuous attitude that insists “authoritarian” is meaningless. The term exists, people use it in political discourse, not engaging with it, and pretending it doesn’t exist is intentionally obtuse. No Marxist should concern themselves with epistemological word games.

The party, to the contrary, uses the state to socialize the economy and maintain dominance over the capitalists that do exist. Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the state is run by the proletariat. For someone that seems to not be too invested in slandering China, you've repeated common misinformation about it without backing yourself up, and then wound yourself up in the epistemological word games you accuse others of.

“Authoritarian” can be concretely defined and understood. Overlooking the self criticism of, “it is very convenient that I refuse to believe in the existence of a verifiable phenomenon that is used to criticize me,” trying to prove the phenomenon is fake rather than engaging with it as criticism, betrays the socialist principle of ruthless criticism, as well as Marxist materialism. No one believes you except those in your own camp. It’s sectarian idealism.

"Authoritarianism" is simply the use of state power, and the state must be understood by its class character. The reason Marxists ridicule those accusing socialist states of "authoritarianism" is because this is juxtaposed not by a lack of authority, but by *capitalist authoritarianism." The degree of state power employed is not a decision of individuals, but of the state reacting to material conditions it finds itself in. Modern Germany has just as much potential to end up like Nazi Germany, but because they aren't in the same degree of crisis they don't need to employ as drastic measures to solidify bourgeois rule.

Overall, you've played more word games than anyone else here, repeated misinformation from anti-communists and cold warriors, then tried to shut down the points of others without meaningfully backing up your own.

[–] Juice@midwest.social -4 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago) (1 children)

Well, I dont appreciate the implication that my views are based on imperialist talking points. I am an admirerer of the Chinese project, but i don't consider it revolutionary. Again I think youre being obtuse when you say you dont know what bourgeois principles are. I think you know that I'm not an imperialist parrot, on the contrary, I think you dismiss my perspectives too eagerly. However I appreciate the push back on the state capitalist definition. My most recent study of those conditions are based on formulations by Loren Goldner, based on formulations of Bordiga. Its not that I subscribe to them explicitly but its clear I need to develop a stronger critique.

Also

The reason Marxists ridicule those accusing socialist states of “authoritarianism”

I am hearing that I am not a Marxist because i acknowledge the substance of a criticism, and that ridicule is in fact a viable mode of political discourse. This speaks such volumes. This is exactly the sectarianism I am most principally concerned with.

A party that coexists with the bourgeoisie is reformist, a party that sustains a depoliticized middle class also sustains exploitation for the sustainance of their bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeois and middle classes are the way that a state obfuscates class antagonisms.

I dont think it is a stretch to insist that a party that sustains a bourgeois class would have a bourgeois character. It would surprise me if the Chinese party didn't have a detailed and thorough history of this problem. The bourgeois nature of the party is expressed through state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is not 1:1 with proletarian administration, bureaucracy is self-sustaining. The CCP has no incentive to abolish itself or to wither away, on the contrary! Whereas you wish to purge opposing viewpoints, I argue the CCP needs to purge its bourgeois reformism before it can ever meaningfully resist imperialism. The idea that the party affects the class, while its essential character is independent of that class is just pure idealist rubbish. You seem to think the party state is buying time for socialism, but I dont think you can prove that it isnt social democratic in nature, that is, withering away of the power of proletariat.

However I did refer to the party as a bureaucratic class which is not accurate either, it is not a class, but rather, a social relation created to mitigate class antagonisms. This also will require further development on my part.

I guess I just kind of wish that you could be straight with me instead of being like a propagandist/apologist? Like I know you have criticism of the CCP, I'm sure you would share them with others who you felt comfortable going so. But rather than viewing me as a comrade, I'm an imperialist parrot deserving ridicule. If you knew three things about me you'd choke on that assumption. Which shows your connection to all this is alienated, because you can't directly connect with me as an organizer, Marxist, socialist or fellow traveler. All connections between people are mitigated through ideology, through affectation and epistemology rather than anything genuinely respectful of difference. Its the puritain, purging mentality of state bureaucrats, not revolutionaries.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 14 hours ago (1 children)

I'll move past the first couple paragraphs, which I think you'll be okay with considering the opener was your background and the second you taking issue with me stating the standard Marxist position as in contradiction with yours, implicitly categorizing you as non-Marxist in that analysis. I do maintain that you are removing yourself from Marxism with that analysis, but I'll address what you brought up here.

A party that coexists with the bourgeoisie is reformist, a party that sustains a depoliticized middle class also sustains exploitation for the sustainance of their bourgeoisie. The petite bourgeois and middle classes are the way that a state obfuscates class antagonisms.

Coexistance is not what is going on in China. The bourgeoisie are in a drawn out process of eradication, as the proletarian state gradually collectivizes property. They cannot accelerate this as they are still thoroughly coupled with global capitalism, the transition between capitalism to communism is itself global and thus China plays a revolutionary role in undermining imperialism, the primary contradiction.

I dont think it is a stretch to insist that a party that sustains a bourgeois class would have a bourgeois character. It would surprise me if the Chinese party didn’t have a detailed and thorough history of this problem. The bourgeois nature of the party is expressed through state bureaucracy. Bureaucracy is not 1:1 with proletarian administration, bureaucracy is self-sustaining.

The CPC is not sustaining the bourgeois class, but is restrained by the global transition. The party itself is not bourgeois. Doubtless there are liberals in China, of course there are, but the party is proletarian in nature.

The CCP has no incentive to abolish itself or to wither away, on the contrary! Whereas you wish to purge opposing viewpoints, I argue the CCP needs to purge its bourgeois reformism before it can ever meaningfully resist imperialism. The idea that the party affects the class, while its essential character is independent of that class is just pure idealist rubbish. You seem to think the party state is buying time for socialism, but I dont think you can prove that it isnt social democratic in nature, that is, withering away of the power of proletariat.

The CPC is not trying to abolish itself, nor should they. China is meaningfully opposing imperialism, and has freed much of the global south from the trappings of underdevelopment. The CPC is not "buying time for socialism," China is already socialist. Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the proletariat is in charge of the state. What remains between now and communism is the long, drawn out transition. Social democracies have private ownership as principle, and capitalists in charge of the state.

However I did refer to the party as a bureaucratic class which is not accurate either, it is not a class, but rather, a social relation created to mitigate class antagonisms. This also will require further development on my part.

I recommend Gramsci's On Comrade Bordiga's Sterile and Negative "Left" Criticism since you mentioned Bordiga earlier.

I guess I just kind of wish that you could be straight with me instead of being like a propagandist/apologist? Like I know you have criticism of the CCP, I’m sure you would share them with others who you felt comfortable going so. But rather than viewing me as a comrade, I’m an imperialist parrot deserving ridicule. If you knew three things about me you’d choke on that assumption. Which shows your connection to all this is alienated, because you can’t directly connect with me as an organizer, Marxist, socialist or fellow traveler. All connections between people are mitigated through ideology, through affectation and epistemology rather than anything genuinely respectful of difference. Its the puritain, purging mentality of state bureaucrats, not revolutionaries.

I'm capable of critique of the CPC, sure. At the same time, I find it far less important than taking a pro-socialist stance that upholds existing socialism. I can recognize your desire to establish socialism while also vehemontly disagreeing with your position, see Gramsci on Bordiga earlier. I think Nia Frome's article Long, Queer Revolution may be helpful for you. Here's an excerpt:

What do we gain from viewing the revolution as a long, queer process? Perhaps the most salutary effect is that it lets us stop arguing about whether any given state “is” or “is not” socialist. “Socialism” names a global transition; a given state may take a leading role in this transition for a time, but we should expect any state, even one in the lead, to be advancing along some fronts while it regresses or stagnates on others (wouldn’t it be entirely too stagist to imagine otherwise?). The game of tallying up progressive vs. regressive features in order to cleanly demarcate socialist countries from capitalist ones can’t ever be brought to a satisfying close, precisely because socialism is just capitalism’s turning into something else, a process that is spread out over the human race in a constantly shifting (combined and uneven) mosaic. It’s unreasonable to think in terms of pure anything, to expect any given fight or institutional innovation to be the fight or the innovation that, if everyone just got on board with it, would finally usher in communism. Instead, we should think in terms of roles — is x playing a progressive role in situation y? Trying to aggregate the answers to this question to arrive at an overall “socialism” score is just as misguided as any other quantity purporting to capture quality.

[–] Juice@midwest.social -2 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Yeah youre completely missing my point. If the current China is part of the transition to socialism, sure, sounds like stageism but fine, but then how does that process progress without critique and criticism? Why is criticism worthy of ridicule? When Marx criticized Feuerbach, was it to ridicule him? To me, your suppression of any views contradictory to your One True Marxism Leninism, your defense of state bureaucracies' use of suppression to quell all criticism, including naturally occurring internal criticism that happens in response to the activities of the party, is exactly the definition of authoritarianism that people are criticizing you for. By your own method, you contradict the definition of authoritarianism as proletarian administration. it's incredibly unconvincing to anyone who uses critique in order to develop a perspective, you know, people like Marx.

The fact is there is zero evidence that China is currently progressing toward socialism. Have they made steps in that direction in the last 100 years? Yes, without a doubt. Are they a counterbalance to imperialist hegemony? In some ways, although they've gone back and forth on that over the years. But you can't prove that they are actively negating capitalist relations. They do an immense amount of suppression, surveillance, and yes exploitation of labor, particularly migrant labor. As long as the bourgeoisie doesnt get too Jack Ma, and government corruption is kept informal, their bourgeoisie still live better than huge swaths of the country. I think they function really well as a social democracy that sustains an aspirational middle class, and the party seems like it has been successful in preventing a capitalist "vanguard" from organizing against the party. But there is no revolution happening there now, and I think that the trend is going in the opposite direction. You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented. I dont understand why its so hard to admit what is so obvious, you massacre your own credibility. Like its not even that bad by comparison, its better than many other places and they do show up in Africa, South America, and in many parts of Asia. But it isnt perfect, in fact its kinda fucked up in a lot of ways, and we should be able to be honest with each other about it without resorting to "ridicule".

Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 hours ago

The fact that I disagree with you doesn't mean I'm preventing you from speaking. I just disagree with you, plain and simple. Critique isn't valuable because it's different, but because it adds depth to understanding or corrects issues, neither of which I see really being done by your claims here.

The plain and simple fact is that China is steadily progressing as a socialist country, gradually focusing on building up the productive forces while maintaining socialism as the mode of production. As time goes on, maintaining socialism means the economic characteristics of market forces will continue to force the socialization of production.

You can not prove that the party has a proletarian character while it exploits labor, suppresses opposing political views, nurtures capitalist relations, nurtures petty bourgeois middle class delusions and presents itself as a state bureaucracy. This is the bourgeois character of the party, it is tangible and well documented.

The party itself is overwhelmingly proletarian:

Further, the political views suppressed are fascist and counter-revolutionary views. The fact that private capital exists does not mean the party is "nurturing capitalist relations." China has contradictions, indeed, but the party itself is not bourgeois, and this certainly isn't because they have a political party and state administration.

Rather than quoting my words and then talking right past me, it would be more productive imo if you actually like tried to digest what people say even a little. Thank god I get to have actually productive organizing discussions to keep me grounded.

I do, just because I'm not convinced by what you have to say doesn't mean I'm talking past you. What you bring up often is either not true or is based on, say, Bordigist left-deviationist critique which is a whole other can of worms to get into. I do organize in real life, and that does keep me grounded as well, hopefully we can both continue our journeys to learn more and unite theory with practice.

[–] davel@lemmy.ml 8 points 1 day ago

Your wall of text is up its own asshole. You’re playing word games while chastising me for playing word games.