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this post was submitted on 18 Sep 2023
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Any PR statement that includes the words "we hear you" can be safely ignored
Also any apology for how it was perceived rather than what was done is worthless.
It's pretty speak for I'm sorry you are stupid and expendable.
RuneScape 3 recently made an extremely controversial change, and I think they handled the apology perfectly. When they finally made changes and dropped some heavily disliked things, they opened with "we messed up". Unity needs to do the same thing here if they want a chance to rebuild
Jagex is respectful not the company I'd look to for inspiration in terms of correcting past mistakes ๐ For the uninitiated, they legally gaslit the community when they made their first major controversial change roughly a decade ago by "removing the feature" then "adding" the same feature with a different coat of paint.
Which feature are you thinking of?
And the only reason they're decent about mistakes is because of the plethora they've accumulated. By no means does that mean they get to it quickly nor fix it adequately all the time. But in the grand scheme of company fuck ups, that's still one of the best. It says more about everyone else than it does Jagex. Still, I appreciate they can flat out say they fucked up.
The Squeal of Fortune, replaced by Treasure Hunter.
I really don't know about that. They seem to do it so regularly that it's been a borderline abusive relationship over the years. Back when the Gowers ran the company, things operated much more smoothly and particularly the pay-to-win aspects were completely absent.
There's no other game I know of with a subscription, pay-to-win loot boxes, cosmetics store, season pass, and bonds. There's also no other game I'm aware of that has overhauled its combat system to such controversy that it split the game in half (and seemingly most people play the old version) -- the closest being Minecraft. There's also absolutely no game where the developers regularly say "that's engine work so we can't do it", when they own their own engine.
I still like RuneScape, but at this point I've completely given up on PvP in the game and anything resembling fairness. I just expect Jagex to do everything they can to try and entice me to give them more and more money for ... ultimately ... less.
Ahhhh I totally see what you mean. Yeah the whole thing with SoF going away for TH was disgusting. I don't even consider it a change really, it's pretty much the same thing. It still doesn't sit right with me that they had an option to kill Yelps in a quest as effectively a scapegoat while they changed nothing.
Completely agree that MTX is out of control and badly designed. I understand why they need it, but they're going about it the completely wrong way and monetizing the wrong things. It should only ever provide cosmetics. And Jagex is absolutely trying to get more money out of us in return for providing less.
EOC is something I've come to see as a mistake over time. It was way too much scope creep. They should've left items and armors and stats the same, and only changed how you dealt damage. Maybe introduce only a couple of abilities to augment combat instead of outright replace it, like bleeds, stuns, freedoms, etc. Plus, OSRS clearly shows that the old combat system could still do interesting and challenging encounters. And yeah PvP on RS3 is laughable and a lost cause, at least as far as the wilderness goes. The popularity of PvP in WE2 makes me think they could do something, but maybe that window has completely passed.
I don't know that the engine criticism is fair though. The game has tons of spaghetti code that its built on. And the downside of having a custom engine is that you have to train anyone who's going to work on it. You can't hire someone experienced in the system.
Agreed.
Yeah, I think the right thing to do would've been to make the wilderness a safe PvP faction vs faction area that's basically a continuous version of one of those events.
Any code base can be fixed, it's just a function of time and money. They can yell spaghetti code all they want, but ultimately Jagex is the one that allowed that to happen in the first place. It's not an excuse to further gaslight your customers. It's something you should take accountability on, and work to fix. Done right, having your own engine is an opportunity to do new and exciting things.
It's certainly a very large financial undertaking to change the engine like that, and at that point they're honestly better off just making a new game entirely.
I love your idea for the wilderness, safe PvP for factions would've been a lot of fun.
They might be doing exactly that FWIW. There's some evidence Jagex is working on a "RuneScape universe" oriented game in Unreal Engine.
Still, that's not the silver bullet that people often think it is. Rewrites are often far more expensive than originally anticipated and extremely risky as even if you intend to make the exact same game, there are often differences that come down to the underlying engine in how the game plays that can be controversial.
For context, I've been on a team that did a full rewrite of a large complicated C# web application in Ruby and I've also worked on several C/C++ "desktop" applications that have roots in the late 80s and early 90s. The former is more "fun" in a sense, you can make up for a lot of sins. However, I fundamentally believe that unless the language you're moving from has serious fundamental issues (e.g. you're insane and wrote a million line application in Bash), you're probably better taking a hard look at your application and retrofitting new systems inside of the old application where you most badly need those changes.
Even in the "worst case" it's in practice true that most of the code doesn't need touched, it's just some really intertwined portions that need revamped. You can often get away with making a new system that replaces the guts of the old, thus powering both the existing code, and allowing you to achieve whatever goal you had in rewriting in the first place (working faster, safer, more readably, etc).
Yeah that's fair. It's you can nearly cordon off the engine and then upgrade it to keep the same functionality it could work well. I guess it really depends on estimated hours to figure out if it would be more economic to make a new game or new engine.
I also just wanted to add; if you want to look at what this looks like when the game development company is functioning properly look at Crytek and Hunt Showdown.
Crytek has publicly stated Hunt has a lot of issues internally in its code base. They then responded by committing to fix those issues (i.e. fix their spaghetti), and then they followed up by actually fixing issues (off the top of my head, an advantage when peeking from the left down to how the game handled the player camera was fixed, bugs in the ammo system resulting in a number of issues with reloading were fixed).
They didn't stop there though. They said in their last roadmap update, they're working with their internal CryEngine development team to make major changes to CryEngine (and this is reflected by Crytek's CryEngine team stopping release of CryEngine to make major refactors for CryEngine 7) to do everything they want to do, remove hacks coded into Hunt's fork of CryEngine, and pay all the tech debt down to get Hunt running on the most recent CryEngine (and hopefully keep it there, with all the tech advances that brings).
There was and has been consistent follow through.
I just am cynical about Jagex's willingness to spend money in this space. Ever since they've been owned by venture capital, everything is penny pinched; it needs to have an obvious return on investment.
We as players normally only see the content developers in interviews, and they're often folks that don't even have proper computer science degrees or training. Jagex internally for years has hired largely unskilled workers into their QA department and then promoted them into "developer" positions that work with RuneScript.
I'm fairly confident the engine team was a skeleton crew (and one split among developing iOS, Android, and Desktop clients) until the last few years when it became apparent at least some investment into the engine on the server side/more broadly was necessary.
I looked into joining their engine team at one point, and then promptly walked away when I saw the payscale.
Basically, I see no reason to give them slack; it's actually a bit counter productive in my view. The community should be stern that Jagex should address their issues rather than running from them and constantly blaming "yesterday's Jagex" for why "today's Jagex" is making bad decisions, can't do XYZ, etc