Europe
Europe community on dbzer0. Intended to be a place to discuss European news, politics, or just general topics from a European perspective. Since this is on dbzer0 expect the community to lean more leftist-anarchist but a wide range of views are accepted here (within reason).
Rules:
1. No Bigotry or Hate Speech
Any forms of Homophobia, Transphobia, Queerphobia, Racism, or Ableism will be met with swift and harsh action and will not be tolerated here whatsoever. Bigots will be banned immediately on-sight. This includes apologia of it.
Trying to be politely or intellectually bigoted i.e. "Just asking questions" won't be tolerated.
2. No Zionism
Any forms of Zionism or Zionist rhetoric will not be tolerated here, this includes Zionist apologia, accusations of antisemitism towards anti-Zionists, or blatant denial or downplaying of the genocide towards Palestinians. Any attempt to uphold or prop up the IHRA definition of antisemitism, will be treated as Zionism.
Anyone engaging in Pro-Zionist sentiment or apologia will be actioned in accordance with its severity.
Note: Trying to find loopholes or whataboutery to see what is or isn't genocide denial or Zionism will be treated as a violation of this rule. Don't test us.
3. Stay Civil
Please maintain civil discourse in the community. Do not engage in arguments with others, name-calling, or insults. Note that calling out bigotry or Zionism is not considered an insult. In heated arguments users are encouraged to or even required to disengage failure to do so will result in mod action.
4. No Misinformation
Spreading of misinformation intentionally in this community is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Spreading misinformation hurts the credibility of the community and can mislead people sometimes in dangerous ways. Users who intentionally post misinformation as articles, comment answers, or in attempt to win arguments will be actioned swiftly.
Note: This includes Russian and Chinese propaganda. Users with a history of such posting will be banned on sight.
5. No AI Content
Please do not post articles or content primarily created using generative AI. Generative AI content may contain misinformation or be lower quality and thus is discouraged. Posts and comments featuring it will be removed. However this community does not allow or tolerate Anti-AI trolling or hostility and users who engage in such behavior will be actioned for it, additionally Anti-AI trolling violates Rule 3 and often Rule 4 so it is generally unacceptable already.
Note: Rules 1 & 2 may be subject to preemptive mod action due to their severity, and they apply to a user's entire post history. Not just this community.
view the rest of the comments
Well, but part of my point is they are already in a hybrid war with Russia at this point. Russian drones in Poland, fighter jets in Estonia, DHL bombing plans, election interference, and so on. It's not just a Ukraine thing.
If a violent street gang is waging a violent war on one of your neighbors, then maybe you can say you don't want to be involved. Once they're cutting your power lines, once they've come over to your house and tried your door a few times to see if it's unlocked, opened up and gone through your mail, that kind of thing, it's time to recognize what's up. I feel like about 30% of the EU (the eastern part mostly) realizes this, and the rest don't care all that much and just want to keep collecting paychecks and doing trade deals and hoping it will all blow over or be someone else's problem.
Maybe the HOA isn't the right venue for talking about that. I get what you mean. Regardless, it needs to be talked about and reacted to, is my point. Bullies generally keep pushing until they get pushback, it's very dangerous to do nothing. Remember when Russian fighters violated Turkey's airspace? 17 seconds later, Turkey shot the fighter down. Job done. Now Russia and Turkey are buds again. It's just how this type of mentality operates. The EU / US's "escalation management" just comes across as weakness in my opinion, it just invites more escalation.
EU as an organisation isn’t equipped to deal with stuff like this, because it wasn’t ever meant to. We don’t have a common foreign policy or even a common budget, yet we expect it to deal militarily with a war between two non-members. I’m not saying this to take a stab at EU. EU does what it can with competencies it has. Individual states passing the buck to EU is just convenient way of not doing much at all unfortunately.
Yes, you said that already. Then I responded. Replying to my response just to repeat what you said before, as if I hadn't already responded addressing it, doesn't add too much.
In particular, you saying "between two non-members" means you completely missed a big part of my message. Try searching for "Poland" and "Estonia" to help you find the relevant part. Or maybe just read the whole thing and then respond to the new thing instead of repeating.
Edit: Actually, one other point: So I don't really care whether the EU response comes within the structure of EU government, or within the structure of the individual governments involved that are part of the EU. My point is, they should be responding more than they are. If the individual governments decided to talk outside of the building that houses the EU offices, and decided to start blowing up these fighters that violate their airspace with their individual militaries, that would be fine to me. That was sort of what I meant in talking about the HOA, but maybe that way of explaining it fleshes it out in a little more detail.