Modlog: https://sh.itjust.works/modlog/25693?page=1&actionType=All&userId=21053985 , banned by @goat@sh.itjust.works
For context, goat started calling dbzer0 users tankies, and got into a few arguments.
More context:
It started (to my knowledge) with this comment, goat pinged db0 after he downvoted a comment
a note on the uyghurs (click to show
For the record, I believe that the Uyghurs are mistreated by the CCP, and are experiencing cultural erasure and Human Rights abuses, but there's a lack of evidence that it's a genocide specifically (especially since it seems to target the religion, rather than the ethnic group).
Goat banned IndustryStandard, leading to this thread: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/52160152/ leading to goat commenting this:
https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/52160152/21070262
He mentions this:
We constantly encounter bots, spammers, alt accounts, trolls, and doxxers, so I need to be vigilant by regularly checking who’s interfering and from where.
Which I find ironic, since there was some vote manipulation happening, which goat did nothing about (and could be behind), but I'll get to that later.
After some more arguments, goat started calling dbzer0 users tankies, saying that letting tankie users engage on dbzer0 comms means other users are tankies:
He said that it's different for LW (lemmy.world) and SJW (sh.itjust.works, not the other word). He then poster the "Tank Man" picture to !flippanarchy@lemmy.dbzer0.com, as he expected us to retaliate (being tankies, according to him). We did not, in fact, retaliate: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/21089819
He also posted this in tankiejerk: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/52268655, https://sh.itjust.works/comment/20733015.
He also may have done vote manipulation, and at the very least allowed it.
Take, for example, this comment: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/21091723
Per lemvotes, it was downvoted by the following users:
The relevant ones here are:
- zedbite@lemmy.world,
- Alpacaaca@lemmy.cafe,
- chirichiri@sh.itjust.works.
If you look through other comments, they downvoted me and other users near-systemically, while upvoting comments made by goat.
For example, take a look at their (respective) lemvotes profile pages: https://lemvotes.org/user/zedbite@lemmy.world https://lemvotes.org/user/Alpacaaca@lemmy.cafe https://lemvotes.org/user/chirichiri@sh.itjust.works
They have all downvoted exclusively arguments against goat and others, and were made almost at the same time.
After a bit more arguing (I'm not posting the specific comments because it's tedious, and they're easy to see by scrolling through goat's profile.) goat decided to ban all dbzer0 users from meanwhileongrad, I think this comment marks when he decided to do this, but I may be wrong.
note on the post that comment was in reply to
I think this reply (by unruffled) was taken out of context. Unruffled is absolutely not defending what's happening to the Uyghurs, they're saying that a lot of people have a double standard, where they will not hesitate to condemn the Uyghur genocide, but hesitate on the gaza one, especially when the gaza one is more severe and urgent. To quote them directly:
Yes, that's exactly what I was saying but of course they misrepresented it. You know exactly what Americans are like. They couldn't give a shit about the uyghurs, except as a way to China bash and feel superior. I also explicitly said later in the comments I agreed it was a genocide. They're just doin' the usual bad faith takes.
Feel free to quote me lol
Since this goat had been banned from dbzer0 for being hostile:
https://sh.itjust.works/modlog?page=1&actionType=All&userId=63615
Oh so you are actually a tankie by definition haha. Ok I guess this post makes more sense now.
I think it's fair for me to assume that you're just going to call me a brainwashed liberal for not agreeing with your narrative on the revolution. So, respectfully, discussing that probably isn't going to be very productive for us.
But I do think you are misrepresenting the idea of authoritarianism. You are correct that at some level authority is applied in every society, but where that authority is derived from is the distinguishing characteristic.
In a democratic system, authority is derived from the will of the people through elections and voting. Unions, the original soviets and many communist structures are inherently democratic. However In a traditionally "authoritarian" system, authority is usually derived from the threat of violence.
While the threat of violence exists in a democratic system, there is a path to peaceful reform and resolution of conflict. In an authoritarian system, change is usually only achieved through violence.
You may or may not be a liberal, that doesn't really make a difference, you're already caricaturizing me rather than engaging with the points I actually make. That's the point of "tankie," it gives you a ready-made strawman to justify not engaging with the actual points at hand.
"Brainwashing" doesn't exist, though, people ultimately license themselves to believe whatever they presently believe materially benefits them and morally justifies them. I'm not "enlightened" nor am I immune to propaganda, but I have done a lot of research into the common "black marks" of AES. I believe the level of research I've done is sufficient to reject the standard western claims on a lot of red scare-era myths.
As for the origin of authority, the USSR was democratic. It was dissolved entirely through reform! The fact that it oppressed the bourgeousie, the White Army, terrorists, Nazi sympathizers, etc isn't in conflict with the fact that it was overall a collectively run society with a unique and far-more integrated form of democracy that goes well beyond liberal democracy.
Sure, I'm a Marxist-Leninist, if you're anti-Marxist I would be a "tankie, commie, pinko, red," etc in your eyes. I'd rather you move beyond simple pejoratives and actually engage with the facts at hand, though.
I think we'll have to disagree to disagree. (Except for the parts where I completely agree with you)
To bring it back to the original point:
Personally knowing Ukrainians who are currently defending their homes from Russian invasion, I think I will never forgive Russia for what they've done and the innocent people they've killed. Just like I would never forgive the US, or Israel or any country that commits similar atrocities. Putin ultimately bears responsible for this.
I appreciate the thoughtful responses you gave to everything though and it gave me reason to think through my own convictions too (even if they remain unchanged).
We weren't talking about the modern Russo-Ukrainian War, though. Ignoring that there are a ton of people in the Donbass region that will never forgive Kiev for murdering them over the last decade in a bloody civil war, we were talking about Hungary in 1956, and the USSR. Modern Russia, the Russian Federation, is capitalist, we were talking about the USSR.
Is your point just that Russians themselves are evil? Genuinely, otherwise I'm not sure why you're suddenly bringing up the RF. I feel like this is a drastic topic change that had no leadup whatsoever. We can discuss the complexities of the lead-up to the modern Russo-Ukrainian War if you want, but that's a pretty big pivot.
Oh yeah. Just completely unverifiable claims of indiscriminate shelling by Ukraine after Russia invaded Donbass and Crimea.
Also my bad, I was in another discussion and got mixed up. People tend to pile on you in .ml when you don't toe the party line.
But, I did mean what I said about the discussion.
The civil war started a decade ago, even western orgs like NPR were reporting on the tensions between the Donbass and western Ukraine. It's absolutely verified at this point that the Donbass region is pro-Russian overall, what's under consideration is whether Kiev has the right to prevent them from seceding, and whether Kiev is justified in claiming Russia wants to annex all of Ukraine, or just the Donbass region. The situation is a lot more complex than Putin waking up one day and deciding to conquer the west, and trying to reduce it to a simple battle of "good vs evil" harms our ability to understand how to get the best outcome out of our present situations.
Either way, though, thanks for at least being relatively receptive to the Marxist viewpoint, even if you're ultimately rejecting it. It's good to question your understanding, especially when it aligns with the US Empire's narrative. As the world hegemon, the US Empire is by far the biggest obstacle to global prosperity, so its motives in any situation need to be called into question. It never does anything out of a desire for altruism, nobody does.