Global News
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I disagree with religion but I still think people should have the freedom to follow one.
No one’s trying to ban religions here - you just don’t get a free pass for barbaric behavior because of it.
Barbaric behavior like... not showing one's hair?
This isn’t about hijabs - it’s about burkas and niqabs. One covers everything except the eyes, and the other covers those too.
What makes it barbaric isn’t the desire to be covered, but the fact that it’s not the woman’s choice. Nobody dresses up in a bag willingly.
It isn't forced in Finland
It is by choice
I thought burka referred to something else so my bad there. In that case I think the whole affair is pretty weird myself, but the original point still stands: Women wearing these things is up to them, and whether parents raise their children to wear these things is up to them. When talking about parenting the whole concept of consent gets pretty dubious, but that's the case for everything. Society generally recognizes that parents have great leeway in raising their kids, so I expect more than vibes as a reason to infringe on that.
Lost your horse somewhere, white knight? You'll need a source to back that up.
I'll quote my other comment:
I'm not saying that literally nobody wears burka or niqab willingly but I think we have enough examples of it being forced upon them that it doesn't seem like a huge stretch for me to generalize that it's the rule rather than exception.
That is extremely fallacious logic. First, only one of these is about niqab, the rest are hijab which is outside the scope of this conversation. Second, it's easy to have enough examples of it being forced when your example is the country on earth where it's imposed by law. Your average woman most likely isn't wearing a burka willingly in Afghanistan, but what evidence do you have that this holds in other societies where niqab is much, much rarer? The condition that makes the assumption hold in Afghanistan is clearly lacking in other societies.
I don’t think it’s outside the scope of this conversation, since these are examples of dress codes forced upon women under Islam. The Quran and hadiths, while not always explicit, make multiple references to how women should dress. Different countries and religious sects interpret these rules differently, but it all boils down to the same thing: in these cultures, there are consequences for women who don’t follow the tradition.
It's outside the scope of the conversation because while you have more examples of legally-enforced hijab, you also have orders of magnitude more women wearing them in societies without such compulsion, so you're still not providing any evidence to back up your point, which so far boils down to "this isn't common in my society so it's bad".
No, it’s universally bad - not just in my society.
I think we both agree that telling women what to wear is wrong. The rest of the disagreement seems to boil down to how much each of us thinks they truly have the freedom to choose. I doubt you’ll change my mind on that, and it seems I won’t change yours either - but that’s okay, because I think we’re still on the same page when it comes to the core belief in bodily autonomy.