this post was submitted on 11 Jul 2025
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Yeah except they try in earnest to say that criticism of "their" country is "antisemitism"
Or that any criticism of Zionism is antisemitic. There are of course people who do use antizionism talking points as a defense for their anti-semitism but I feel like most people are able to draw the line pretty clearly.
Also the country is committing a genocide so there's going to be quite a lot of hate for it and rightly so given that their responsible for at least 200,000 deaths. And anyone who tries to defend that is kind of get called out for it
And don't want the world to remember that Palestinians are human beings, and also Semites.
Zionism is the use of the right to self determination of the Jewish people in their ancestral homeland, currently as the state of Israel. If you deny the Jewish people the right to self determination, but support it for others, then that’s antisemitic of course.
You can criticize Israel’s current actions in the war in Gaza. Many Israelis do that all the time and have since early in the war. Most of those protesting in Israel against the Netanyahu government and for an end to the war wave Israeli flags and identify as Zionists themselves.
In practice, when people say they criticize Zionism, what they often actually want is for Israel to be destroyed. The state that is a home to and protects half of the Jews. The implications of that ends up pretty terribly for Jews. If you want half the world‘s Jews to be ethnically cleansed („go back to Poland“), of course that’s antisemitic.
Well this is where you and I break away and disagree then.
One, the founder of Zionism Theodore Herzl was very very clear what this was about. Its explicitly a settler colonial state exactly the same way the US or South Africa are.
Two, you don't need your own country to have self-determination otherwise immigrants would not have come to the US seeking self-determination. As long as you were free to pursue whatever you want you have access to self-determination. A state is not necessary. Preferably Israel would be turned into a multicultural secular State instead of a Jewish Supremacy state. Any attempt to label Jewish people as in danger from this would be racist since the government would be secular.
Three, the Palestinians have every right same as the Jewish people and more so since they had a continuous presence in the land to also live there with self-determination.
Four, surveys overwhelmingly in Israel show a couple of things. Firstly they do show that Netanyahu is fairly unpopular for his handling of the hostage crisis. Overwhelmingly Israelis are fine with the actions of the IOF. Most recent polls show 80% want more aggressive action against Gaza. The governments line on comparing Palestinians to "Amalek" and the agreeance of the majority of the population Israel show that the genocidal rhetoric is not what's unpopular with Netanyahu
Five, Israel has got to be one of the most racist places that I currently know about. It's lovely watching all the videos in Flag Day where all of these lovely Jewish families were chanting "death to Arabs" in Hebrew which leads into one of the anti-Zionist Jewish points that Zionism is inherently racist since it specifically calls for a race of Jews.
If you want to commiserate with these points go to Reddit. Most on Lemmy are very aware of the history of Zionism, Israel, and Palestine.
Edit:
I can Source every single one of these claims. Let me know if you want them.
It’s not like the Jews had a choice. They fled from persecution and Israel was the only place most of them could go to survive. It’s a state founded by refugees fleeing oppression, persecution, and genocide. That makes it fundamentally different from other settler countries like Australia, the USA, Canada, all Latin American countries, and many more.
Most Israeli Jews didn’t even come there themselves, they were born in the land and have no other home.
Yes, Palestinians also have a right to self determination. Two state solution is the best option for that. Sadly they refused several of the good offers they got, especially around the turn of the millennium.
Of course there are racist and hateful Israelis as well. The overall society has understandably hardened their stance towards Palestinians since October 7th.
You could say that about any ethnic nationalist movement.
Similar chants are common in the other direction as well.
A hundred years of conflict have taken their toll.
Nah this conflict's a little over 200 years old since it comes directly from Theodore herzl's work in 1850.
Many Jewish people did have a choice and many specifically chose not to move there.
The mass expulsions you're talking about were Community Driven by those that Associated the Zionist actions of the nakba with the Jewish indigenous people. It's unfortunate but that's what happens when your group claims to be the sole voice of Jewish people.
Hell there's at least one terrorist attack that occurred in Iraq that we know was caused by Israeli terrorists. We don't know if they actually work for the government but we do know they were Israeli and we do know they were Zionist. This was because not enough Jewish people were moving into Israel to make it a viable state.
Let's talk World War II. Obviously there's the shoal. But what about the other 6 million people that were also killed that weren't Jewish? You know the Kurds, Roma, disabled, lqbtq, mentally disabled, the Poles and other Slavic communities who all had a state that they belong to that we're not defended by that state. Furthermore those people didn't think they needed a state for self-determination.
Don't forget the total dead in the Holocaust is 11 million. There's more that suffered in that period than just the Jewish people.
I would love to talk about when the two State Solutions were going to become viable. Was it during the Oslo Accords when Israel refused to acknowledge a path to the two State solution? What about the abraham Accords? In fact name one time in a period of History where Israel has ever been okay with the two-state solution.
I'm sure whatever you have to prove that Israel was okay with the two State solution will absolutely not be a piece of United States or Mossad propaganda not missing critical details or misrepresenting the situation.
And furthermore as I said it's not like the Jewish people could not have gone there they only had to integrate with the already existing Community rather than trying to supplant it with what they called their "Superior Jewish one"
Many died in Europe.
Jews were not exactly popular as refugees immigrants. A ship full of Jewish refugees was denied entry into the USA famously. At the end of WW2 no state wanted the displaced Jewish population.
The middle eastern Jews who were expelled had no other place to go either.
The Farhud also happened.
Look up at what times Jews were even allowed and strongly encouraged to leave Iraq.
Look at the map of Europe and the number of Slavic states. There are a lot of them nowadays. Or do you want to say that these people aware better off living under the yoke of the Russian and then Soviet Empire, the Austro-Hungarian Empire, or the Ottoman Empire?
1935 peel commission. 1947 UN partition plan. Between 1948 and 1967 Israel tried to get recognition of its borders from their Arab neighbors several times.
Oslo was a step towards true two states. There were offers in 2000, Camp David, Clinton Parameters, Taaba, Olmert, I might miss one. Israel made several specific offers, which the Palestinians refused without giving a counter offer.
They tried. The Zionist movement wasn’t uniform either. The Arab population overall wasn’t to keen on the new arrivals, like can be seen in the Hebron massacre in 1929 and many other examples. The local Arabs launched a whole Arab revolt against Jewish immigration. Which lead to the British Empire restrict Jewish immigration severely during WW2. Or do you mean by integrate live as second class dhimmi, who pay extra tax, aren’t allowed to ride horses, are disadvantaged in courts have to wear yellow stars, can’t wear shoes near a mosque, and similar things Jews under Muslim rule were subject to?
The only thing I will address out of this comment since it's all full of Zionist talking points that can be easily debunked.
As I said zionism and the Colonization of Palestine has been going on since 1850.
The actions of of Zionist from this period directly contributed to the Palestinian reactions, like the Hebron Massacre.
Regardless it does not matter as no group of people deserves this type of treatment. An 85-year occupation with no autonomy.
Not a single one of those commissions you listed including the Peel Commission offered a path to a Palestinian state. Something you would know if you just weren't repeating Israeli talking points.
In every single commission the only thing Israel has offered is some sort of autonomy in name. In practice they would still control the air, the water, the border, the trade, the immigration, the electrical you know kind of like how Israel controls the West Bank almost entirely instead of the autonomy they promised to give Palestinians.
Kind of makes you wonder what the Palestinians have autonomy over.
Let's not forget that autonomy isn't the same thing as having your own State either.
There's the fact that every Palestinian including Israeli Palestinians are subject to military law instead of standard Israeli civil law like the rest of the citizens.
Dhimmni is a tax any non-muslim pays in a Muslim country. Sorry to burst your bubble but this isn't a uniquely Jewish persecution. Christians and other religious denominations also have to pay it.
Your point about the slavics having a bunch of their own different states doesn't mean anything for self-determination it doesn't discount the fact that you don't need a country for self determination. Especially considering the history of the USSR. Nice try though.
Furthermore Jewish people have had a continuous presence in Palestine for thousands of years and have lived peacefully along their neighbors for as long with only a few events the other religious minorities also suffered.
Nothing mentioned in this is unique to the Jewish people down to and including the Holocaust.
And nothing you mentioned justifies the atrocities and ethic cleansing the Israel has participated in for 85 years.
Oh and as for your Jews aren't popular refugees, refugees aren't popular refugees. No country wants to take refugees regardless of ethnicity
Why was there no Palestinian state established in the West Bank and Gaza between 1948 and 1967?
Zionist ethnic cleansing mostly.
How could the Zionists ethnically cleanse anyone in Gaza or the West Bank while these were under Egyptian and Jordanian rule?
How could the Palestinians commit any pograms when the territory was under Ottoman and British rule?
This is false, you can watch a very well sourced video here the sources are pinned at at the top of the videos comment section if you want reading material.
Listen to this Saudi diplomat who was a witness to many negotiations and the behavior of Palestinian leadership over the decades. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XTSrlONiDU&t=650s
Your linked video is so blatantly dishonest. Just one example: at 4:22 it complains that Palestine would have gotten lots of infertile land, completely disregarding the Negev.
The sources listed are a long list of books without any pages indicated. Lots of them with a strong pro palestine bias that distort history.
https://x.com/JalalAK_jojo/status/1946806553115263349
Most tolerant people ever. Israelis definitely aren't blood thristy or anything
Nope. It's explicitly a colonial project, always was.
Your ancestors living somewhere a couple thousand years ago doesn't give you the right to kick out the people living there now. It sure as hell doesn't give you the right to commit genocide ti do so.
I deny the Jewish people the right to an apartheid ethnostate as I do with every other group with such aspirations.
It doesn't matter if you're Jewish, Muslim or Christian, Israeli, Saudi, or White American. Favoring one religion and/or ethnicity over all others is never acceptable in a modern country.
Thank you SO much for allowing me to do what every clear minded person with a conscience already does! So kind of you! 🙄
Citation needed.
More tired Hasbara lies 🙄
If you're going to carry water for a fascist apartheid regime, could you at least be just a LITTLE original? Just try it on for size?
The state that breeds ACTUAL antisemitism more than any other entity in the world, making every Jewish less safe, by insisting on equating its atrocities with being Jewish.
Yeah, you're right about that. Just in the opposite direction than you think.
Another ridiculous Hasbara strawman. No part of anti-zionism calls for anything of the kind. It's pure projection from the defenders of the government ACTUALLY committing ethnic cleansing.
If anything, conflating Israel with all Jewish people is itself highly antisemitic, given that the vast majority of Jewish people in the world aren't committing genocide and genocide isn't inherently part of Jewdom.
Do you think Denmark, Poland, Japan should be abolished?
Really? That's the best you can do for "and another thing" two days later?
Hasbarists really are imbeciles and morally bankrupt 🤦