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this post was submitted on 27 Aug 2023
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The MOVE bombing. The fact that the Philadelphia police dropped not one but TWO explosive devices on the roof of their house via helicopter is still nuts to me. What made it even worse was the fact that the fire department showed up and let it continue to burn, destroying 61 evacuated neighboring homes and leaving 250 people homeless.
Any time I tell someone about it that hasn’t heard the story, they’re skeptical.
Another one is the time I learned that I was under local surveillance for being an activist that was part of a local non-violent black liberation org. The police would send a unit weekly to check my whereabouts and movements. I learned through a friend of a friend that didn’t even know who I was, but knew my name and that I was on a surveillance list. Pretty sure they were checking in on everyone involved.
Edit: if this comment has taught me anything, it's that you're better off not engaging with pointless nitpickers and police apologists. Fuck me for having an opinion.
I just looked up MOVE after reading this comment. Amazing power dynamics (from wikipedia):
The "city" was found to have used excessive force, and compensation in these cases comes from taxpayer money.
The Philadelphia police wanted MOVE gone because they bucked the system and were at odds with the police over the ongoing murder of their people. That’s why they went to such lengths to eradicate them at their main row house. I remember reading about how it was essentially a shooting gallery for the police. As people tried to escape the building, police fired upon them.
It was an insanely careless plan borne out of hubris, hatred towards black liberation groups in a time of high racial tensions, and the police (again) thinking that they were above the law. I’m actually shocked there was even a lawsuit that stuck. That alone shows how fucked their whole plan was. Even the city and a federal judge couldn’t overlook this one.
The fire department showed up and the move members started shooting at them, which is why the fire department moved back.
Police and MOVE were still exchanging gunfire, so the firefighters were ordered to back away.
Also, to add some intent, the police plan was to make a hole in the roof through which they could shoot year gas and force MOVE members to evacuate. Witnesses did see officers on the adjoining buildings ready to go. It was a stupid plan.
The conspiracy part comes in, though, because we really only have the word of the police on all of this, since all but two of the MOVE people died, and one was a child
Isn't most tear gas flammable? What the fuck is wrong with our cops and why are they so stupid?
You said above “the fire department showed up and let it continue to burn” This is a completely inaccurate statement. The fire department was there from the beginning and were ordered to move back because of the gunfire. Your statement is saying that the fire department showed up at sometime during the event and just waited around and let it continue to burn, which is absolutely untrue .
It’s not inaccurate. That’s what happened because the police decided to corner MOVE members in their home and then fired at them as they tried to move outside. The goal from the start was to kill everyone there and in their rage, they devised easily one of the stupidest plans ever. The police forced people into a corner and they retaliated. The police also got hit with a lawsuit in federal court for use of excessive force and illegal search and seizure.
We can split hairs on phrasing, but the police are to blame for the entire thing and crafted a scenario where the fire department’s hands were tied.
[citation needed]
It was well known that the police disliked MOVE as a collective. That’s why they got slapped with a lawsuit by a federal judge for excessive force, illegal search and illegal seizure. They killed women and children with their plan because of their carelessness, and fired upon anyone that ran from the building they set on fire with their bombs.
Your “citation” is cops and their interactions with black folk on the daily. I’m not gonna play this game where the opposition picks apart the irrelevant parts of a stance to try to weaken it.
Edit: here's your citation
So, it wasn't intentional.
So, cruelty, indifference, but not an actual desire to murder all of them?
I can't read that because it requires a subscription, but I very much doubt it says "the police plan was to kill everyone, and here's the evidence for that".
If that wasn't the intended plan with what they carried out, it was definitely a benefit based on the fact that police were already at odds with MOVE. So sure, no one sat at a table in a backroom and said "we're going to kill them all" while cackling, but it was definitely not something they were opposed to based on their actions (which involved so much overreach and violation of rights that even the city and a federal judge couldn't put a lid on it).
The article talks about how all of the deaths involved in the MOVE shootout were eventually re-categorized as homicides instead of their initial categorization of "accidental".
It's really not a stretch to think that the police didn't want all of MOVE completely eliminated. They were unwilling to work with MOVE and MOVE was unwilling to bend to an organization that constantly violated the civil rights of the black community.
Homicides? Do you mean first degree murder? Because to clear the bar you're attempting to clear you need to prove that "The goal from the start was to kill everyone there".
I’m not going to keep arguing with a bad faith bootlicker.
In other words, "I can't defend my words, so I'll ad-hominem the person who challenged them."
I already did and it became obvious you were arguing in bad faith when you made an assumption about what a source said, despite not being able to actually even read it. You focused on the easiest thing to attack in the info I shared.
No you didn't, you never came up with any evidence to prove your point. You came up with evidence they were malicious, cruel, etc. Not that there was a plan in place to kill them all and they executed that plan. That was your original claim, and nothing you've said backs it up.
Explain to me what you think the goal of dropping 2 military-grade explosives on the house was. I'm honestly confused as to why you're so hung up on commentary that is essentially irrelevant amongst everything I shared.
What's a "military-grade" explosive? Why focus on that, rather than the explosive power? If the "The goal from the start was to kill everyone there" as you stated, it's not the "grade" of the explosives that would matter, it was the quantity. They would have used thousands of pounds, to ensure that nobody survived the explosion. As far as I know the goal of dropping the 750g bombs was to destroy a "bunker" type structure, or to create an opening in the building the police could use to drop in tear gas or to enter themselves.
Because you made an absolutely extraordinary claim, and have been unable to back it up. You could have just backed down and admitted it was an exaggeration, but no, you've pretended it's still true, so I'm pushing you to either admit that you exaggerated or to provide evidence to prove your ridiculous claim.
He didn’t say that. It was a different person. Read the usernames.
None of it would’ve taken place if the police weren’t so fucking stupid with their plan. I get why the fire dept. held back, but the police created that entire scenario.
Also, my statement isn’t wrong.