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Promised Land
(lemmy.world)
Credit Andy Singer 2024
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this post was submitted on 27 Sep 2024
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Which hardly matters when people are taking the homes of people living there currently and killing them. What difference does it make if some of someone's ancestors centuries ago lived in that general part of the world?
You could justify European colonialism in Africa under similar logic, on the grounds that since humans evolved there before spreading out to the rest of the world, all Europeans have ancestors that lived on that continent at some point in the past and would merely be "reclaiming" it.
Although wouldn't kicking the Jews out of Palestine be doing exactly the same thing all over again?
I don't know if I've seen anyone arguing for that. Even the people wanting to get rid of the state of Israel aren't usually wanting to remove the people. Prior to Israel forming, Jews and Muslims lived together in relative peace and harmony. They still do in many places.
The issue comes when one group is told that the land belongs to them specifically, or that the other group is inferior or evil. I don't think removing Israel is a solution at this point, but it does need to fundamentally change. I don't see a possibility for an ethno-state to not create these ideas. It needs to just become a state, not a state for jews specifically.
I remember discussion on making Jerusalem an international zone. I think this would have been better done, even if it results in an immovable ladder. Jerusalem is actually quite interesting for a lot of things like this, like how the keys for the church containing Jesus' empty tomb is held by a Muslim family, or how the Temple Mount is a place of significance for all three of the religions.
It's impossible to remove the state of Israel without evicting / killing it's Jewish population. They are surrounded by entire states that base their culture on wanting to kill as many Jews as possible. What do you think would happen if the entire land suddenly became Palestine and they weren't permitted to protect themselves anymore?
It's impossible now. The reason why they all want to kill them is because they purchased land, refused to hire Muslims who used to work there, then murdered them when they retaliated and stole more land with militias. It makes sense the other people are upset about that.
Yep. That's why I personally think it's dumb to try and argue for the dissolution of Israel at this point. It's too late. All you can do at this point is damage control and to try and find an equitable solution to the Israel-Palestine problem that gives both groups the ability to self-govern.
It'd be like kicking all the Russians out of former USSR countries, or Chinese out of Tibet, or white people out of the US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
Israel should be held accountable for what they've done to the Palestinians, but I also don't think you can reasonably expect for everyone in Israel to pack up and leave at this point.
A one state solution doesn't mean that everyone in Israel would have to leave. It would just mean that everyone in the region gets an equal voice in governance. Many people would probably choose to leave, in the same way many people left South Africa when their system of apartheid ended.
Does even Hamas state they want a two-state solution in their charter?
Eh.... I'm just... Not sure a one-state solution would end well, even if you could get past the US. It's not that I like Israel, I hate everything that Israel is doing right now. I'm absolutely disgusted by the way they've been treating the Palestinians. However, I also don't want to see more violence and bloodshed. I've been sickened by the never ending march of dead bodies that our horrid, god-forsaken species seems to crave.
I want a solution that will result in the least amount of violence and death, and I think something like a two-state solution is more likely to achieve that than telling Israelis that they're now under Palestinian control.
One state with all citizens as first class ones.
Two States mean there will be always a frontier and the hate and grudge will never disappear.
Yeah, I believe the two state solution is probably the most logical
I guess you also believe there's a "White Genocide" going on in South Africa, right?
Plkease stop looking at the world like a white supremacist. For your own sake.
Jesus fuck if that's really what you got from my comment then you need to get off the Internet and get some serious help, dude.
Are you okay? I'm actually kinda concerned.
This you?
I could swear that was you, pretending that decolonialism (somehow) automatically results in the expulsion of this or that people. You know, like a person who only views the world through a white supremacist lens would?
So I take it there is now no objection to the dismantling and destruction of the state of Israel? Or are you still conflating Jewishness with Israel? You know, like white supremacists do?
Yes, I don't think Israel should be destroyed, for the record, there's been enough time since it's founding that people have been born and grown up there without having a say in it's founding after all. But the Palestinians need to be full citizens of some state or another, a proper state with international recognition, sovereignty and the capacity to defend itself against Israel in the future to the extent that is reasonably possible. In theory that could be an Isreal that didn't discriminate against them, but as far as current tensions stand, that seems very unlikely to be stable without one group or the other seeking to disenfranchise the other or worse, so they should have their own state, or states potentially depending on how one decides to handle the issue of the west bank and gaza not being geographically connected.
No one is stopping them from forming their own state on their own land. In fact most of the world supports it. But they choose not to because they want the entire land that Israel is on despite not having the rights or the means to obtain it.
Israel is absolutely stopping them from forming their own state in the west bank and Gaza, indeed, the fact that Israeli settlements keep getting built on the west bank makes it actively harder over time for such a state to be created. The agreement of much of the world doesnt help much when the land in question is under occupation.
Why do you conflate Jewishness with Israel?
I'm referring to the ethnic Jews right now